Another teacher complaint one

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I was going to piggy-back on the currently active thread about a teacher picking on a pupil, but it seemed after reading a few pages that the advice might be different so here goes:

DD (7) feels she is being unfairly targeted by her teacher for minor misdemeanours. She is one of a small number of pupils she claims the teacher 'doesn't like' and singles out for punishment. Another parent in the class has independently told me that her child has told her the same thing, her child is not one of the ones targeted but told her parents that my child was. I know another parent who made a similar complaint last year about the same teacher and a complaint to the head has already been dealt with this year about her treatment of the whole class (from another parent, nothing to do with me).

I have tried to do what I can at home to reinforce good behaviour for DD (both carrot and stick approaches) and have discussed with her several times that if she doesn't do anything wrong, she can't be punished, so to try to keep her nose clean and not step out of line. I have also told her that I'm monitoring all the punishments she gets so that I can decide for myself whether it is unfair or not.

I don't want to claim that she's a perfect child and never puts a foot wrong, but she has not in the past been any worse than any other child of her age and yet is now receiving the brunt of the sanctions. Last year, for example, she got an official sanction once in the year (and I thought her teacher was quite decent and strict last year, definitely not a push over), this year she has already had four since September. I have no problem with her being sanctioned if she has genuinely misbehaved, but I want it to be in line with the punishments others in the class receive, not singling her out.

As an example, another child in the class told the teacher in front of the whole class that she was wrong about a fact (which she was and genuinely didn't know it) and got no punishment. My daughter (on a different day) told the teacher that she had missed out a step in the document she was explaining (which she had) and was shouted at not to interrupt and called rude and was put on warning for a sanction.

The only thing I can get from the teacher, who has complained to me about dd's behaviour, is that she questions adults and children. The teacher labelled this as 'rude' 'completely unacceptable', 'insolent', 'would not be tolerated' etc. but I wasn't able to judge whether she has genuinely been insolent or not since I wasn't given any specific examples. I asked dd herself to give me examples and one of them sounded fair enough (as in, I would have considered it rude): she questioned why the teacher was giving out merits for a very easy task, but all the others just sounded like she had been asking a real question about the work e.g. did she have to write in full sentences on a comprehension test?

She has lost her lunchbreak twice to re-do work because it didn't fulfil the rubric (leave a line between statements). On one occasion she had 4 pages torn out of her book by the teacher and had to re-write them. Not because the work was wrong but because she hadn't followed the instructions about where to leave lines. Again, I didn't undermine the teacher on this, just told dd that she should listen more carefully in the future, but it did seem petty.

She has been moved to sit at the front of the classroom next to the teacher for an indefinite period (presumably until someone else does something worse), lost her break and received a sanction for pushing another child's cardigan off her chair. Again, I'm not saying it was appropriate behaviour, but it does seem to have been unnecessarily harshly dealt with.

DD is getting very despondent and defensive, to the stage where she wants to give up trying to do right because she's going to get shouted at anyway. She has been in tears begging me to move her school or home school her. She has been almost completely put off school and I worry that she's on the verge of refusing.

So, finally getting to the point: AIBU to take some action or is dd really just out of line? If I do something, then what? Complain directly to the teacher or higher up? If IABU then how do I sort dd out? I appreciate that her behaviour at the moment is sometimes rude (e.g. the question about merits) but the friction with the teacher is only going to make it worse, not better, so I'll need some way to correct her myself.

She is SEVEN. Seven year olds need breaks regardless of SLT scrutiny.

She is SEVEN. Seven year olds need breaks regardless of SLT scrutiny

She has a break at break time and whilst she's having lunch. At SEVEN she is perfectly capable of listening to instructions and understand the consequences of not.

The only thing I can get from the teacher, who has complained to me about dd's behaviour, is that she questions adults and children. The teacher labelled this as 'rude' 'completely unacceptable', 'insolent', 'would not be tolerated' etc. but I wasn't able to judge whether she has genuinely been insolent or not since I wasn't given any specific examples.

Thing is it can depend so much on tone and actual words used. And it could be that your dd is not good a phrasing things politely.
There's a world of difference between a child putting up their hand and when asked to speak saying:
"Please could you explain the bit on the board again because I thought a tree that kept their leaves in winter is called evergreen"
and shouting out
"Miss, you're wrong. Again.Trees that keep their leaves are evergreen, we did that last year..."

Some children do struggle to phrase things politely. I remember a girl year below me at primary who was often getting into trouble for being rude. I don't think she meant to be, but it was. I remember her dm complaining to my dm that she was saying the same sort of things as everyone else and appealing to me to agree. I didn't have the words or the confidence to explain how what she was saying was different, so agreed with her. But I knew what was wrong even if I couldn't express it.

I also had a friend at secondary who used to get away with saying quite outrageous things because she phrased it politely and in a very little sweet voice. You'd say thank you to her, then realise exactly what she'd said. We made use to that with teachers too.

I don't agree with tearing pages out but I have this same problem with my A level students

The OP's DD is 7. Not 16-18.

OP, I think the next time your dd complains, you need to go back into see the teacher, say you are concerned about your dd's behaviour in school and can she give you concrete examples of what is going wrong. There is nothing worse than someone saying a pupil (or employee) is annoying/naughty/abrasive/uncooperative/whatever without giving you examples. If you don't know exactly what the behaviour is, you can neither modify it or defend yourself.

I'm not sure why such strict rules are being imposed on a 7 year old about lines on a page. Surely this is something you worry about when a kid is older? Some kids can't even read at that age - and indeed, in some countries, have only just started school.

I do agree with pp's that it is important to get the teacher's perspective. But she needs to give you the concrete examples and not be vague. And I don't even think the merits question was that rude, maybe just a bit arrogant if she thought it was an easy task and others find it difficult but do we really expect a 7 year old to show a level of empathy most MNers on AIBU find it difficult to appreciate?

At SEVEN she is perfectly capable of listening to instructions and understand the consequences of not

Huge assumption there. My son presented alot like this child. Only now at 10 is he starting to grasp it all after the teachers did work to help him focus.

Teacher could be on the verge of a breakdown and your Dd poor behaviour is the final straw so they are over reacting. Maybe you should speak to head teacher

So let me get this right. Your daughter is being disruptive and the teacher has been in touch to say so. She shouts out, does not follow instructions and has been rude and insolent (which you just see as asking questions). She has thrown another pupils belongings to the floor and as a result of all of these is being moved to the front in the hope she will not be even more disruptive.
All you appear bothered about is that one other child did something but didn’t get the same problem. This is all the teacher’s fault.
Hmmmmm.

Is there anything going on outside of school that might affect her behaviour? Is she getting enough sleep? Is she having social issues with her peers? Is she telling the full truth? Quite often the version of events children tell their parents is far from the reality of what is happening in the classroom. Children often miss out key information that puts them in a bad light and they only tell their parents the victim version of the story. Teachers are not being 'strict' btw, more having good behaviour management skills which allows them to teach up to 30 - yes 30 actual children in a class.

For a reason I can't quite put my finger on, your daughter sounds like a pain in the arse.

I wonder how you know she's no worse than any other child.

"I worry that she's on the verge of refusing."

I think this may say more about your approach to parenting (or lack of it) than you meant.

I spent some time today talking to a parent who wanted me not to issue a 10 minute lunchtime detention, as her daughter was a 'model' pupil model pupils hand in the last 4 pieces of homework to me on time and she is not one of the really naughty ones, she just keeps forgetting to do it, so I should make an exception.
The parent did listen to me and we compromised on a way forward and both parties are happy.

These threads are getting ridiculous. I don't understand why some parents don't just raise this calmly and respectfully to the teacher in question, rather than post yet another thread that descends into teacher bashing.

Teacher could be on the verge of a breakdown and your Dd poor behaviour is the final straw so they are over reacting. Maybe you should speak to head teacher

Please tell me you aren't serious.

This is a tricky one, as what you describe could be totally innocent on your child's part, or your child could be cheeky & disruptive and rude.
In your experience - do you allow your child to answer back, correct you, tell you that you are wrong?
There is a child at my school like this - I once went to collect another child from a lesson in the ICT suite, told child to turn off 'the machine' and collect bags and coat etc - the child in question popped her head up and told me "it's not a machine it's called a computer" with the most sneery and insolent attitude. Now that could have been construed two ways depending on how you view it. I found it rude. Child's parent could have said oh but they were correct, it is called a computer not a machine!

It sounds like a case of negative spiral to me.

Your DD has provided some low level disruption and made some mistakes in her delivery of agreeing the teacher.

In turn the teacher formed an option of your DD that probably isn t correct but it's hard for your DD to change her mind when nothing short of perfect will do.

You sound totally reasonable. You've accepted DD is wrong and said what she's done. I think you are also totally right that the punishments no longer seem to fit the crime.

The cardigan thing for example. Yes she was unkind and it was unnecessary silliness. But hardly beating the normal stupidity of 7yos!
Usually in those circumstances punishment should fit the crime - for example picking up rubbish at break time (paper on classroom floor etc) with an explanation that throwing things on the floor means picking stuff up.

I also think the questioning merit thing - although rude - probably wasn't intended to be rude and probably didn't sound rude in her head.

The problem is constant heavy punishment for "doing X wrong" is it doesn't help children learn what to do to get it right.

Low level disruption is extremely wearing and time consuming. Some students are more obvious to identify than others. Some can "get away with it" because they're subtle enough that there is a doubt about who did something and it's hard to pinpoint the exact person who did it. It can come across as favouritism/ victimising, but a teacher can only act on what they have clearly seen.

With things like questioning, timing and tone matter hugely in whether it is acceptable or rude. Being asked about an instruction you have given or are imminently about to give is again wearing and time consuming.

As a PP has mentioned, OFSTED and SLT are prioritising presentation in books. They just want to see the book meeting criteria and don't care how many times the teacher tried to tell the pupil and would rather "sub-standard" work was pulled out and redone rather than besmirch the book.

I'd be going above the teachers head and speaking to the deptuty..if no joy the head.i had a teacher in yr one ,who constantly allowed the girls to boss the boys around,plus other stuff.i took it to the deputy and it was dealt with extremely well.i think as long as you are polite and respectful,and go in trying to find out what's going on ,that's fine

I did have a teacher at secondary school who picked me out ..Was I badly behaved yes however as she was so unfair. I was always the one who got in trouble it was a downwards spiral..

My Son has a teacher who generally seems to not like children.. None of the children like her..I have met her outside of school and she appears like a normal person..I spoke to head and said my DS feels doesn't like him .He was coming out upset every week.. I didn't know how to move it forward.

I also do say though go in and listen to the teacher...There is another side to this story as well. In my DS's case.I have told him that he is not inviting her for a playdate..If he knows what annoys her don't do it..Put your head down and get on with your work.

low level disruption? we are talking about a seven year old missing out a small instruction while doing their work. How many follow instructions that well? my son was very disruptive in his first few years of school - not following instructions, mislaying things, very low attention span etc. turns out he has dyslexia and just could not absorb information and instructions (of course he is also
no angel!)
If another child has said this girl is being picked on and the teacher has form, it could be a valid signal.

I would listen to your daughter and question every unreasonable-sounding punishment with the teacher as someone earlier suggested. Document every punishment you know about. After 3 'unreasonable' instances take it up with the head teacher. This teacher sounds like severus snape!

Teachers can pick on children sometimes, there’s no two ways about it. Once they form an opinion about a child it can be very hard for the child to lose that reputation as a troublemaker.

It does sound as though your DD has played a part in this by not following the teacher’s instructions and has form for being guilty of low-level disruption. OTOH, another girl in the class has said that the teacher picks on your DD. Obviously this is how a 7 year old sees it, but it appears that something has gone wrong since last year and your DD seems unhappy.

A meeting with the teacher is definitely the next step.

There must be something in the water. My ds has had this and this week it's all come to ahead and I've emailed the school and been into see them. It's too long to go into but I ain't gonna let it drop, it's been going on for far too long and the teacher yesterday was basically trying to say my son is hiding his home work so he doesn't have to do it. Which is a load of bollocks as I knew which piece of homework my ds hadn't done and my son always tells me when he has home work and when it has to be in as he is frightend he will get punished. The look on his teachers face when i said I know about the piece of homework it just dropped he didn't know what to say. Trying to tell me my son is a liar, he isn't especially if he knows he will get a punishment. His homework book was with another teacher.
Also one of his English teachers keeps shouting at him and slamming her fist on the table when he gets something wrong. I mentioned this and she had him outside the classroom asking him why he was making stuff up and saying he is worrying me and that I shoudnt be made to worry. So now he is scared to tell me anything. I'm going to have a word with her next as she shouldn't be quizzing my son and saying he's making me worry so he feels guilty for telling the truth. My son is a very anxious child and has learning difficulties and when she shouts at him he panics and make more mistakes so gets punished. There are certain ways they need to approach my son to get him to do what they ask of him which they clearly are not following.
If it carrys on then I'm taking it further. There is no need for it.

"Was I badly behaved yes however as she was so unfair. I was always the one who got in trouble"

As well as missing the lesson on basic grammar. you also have no idea about logic.

Do you not understand the problems with your post?

Sounds like it could be a case of how she is saying things rather than that she is correcting the teacher. She may not have been in trouble before as people tend to have higher expectations of politeness etc as kids get older. I would work on this with her at home.
I also don't think you are setting your dd up to tell you the facts about what is going on at school by punishing her and telling her that you will decide whether the school sanctions are appropriate based on what she has said.

If you google bullying by the teacher, there’s a whole lot of info on it and how to manage it. I’m so glad I went and talked to my DDs teacher because something was going on in her class and I needed the teacher to know that I knew, and needed DD to know I had her back when she was crying all the time. My DD went from top of the class, highly praised, never had any problems, always loved School to a girl I didn’t recognise in 4 weeks with this new teacher. You know your DC, you know what feels right, go with your gut. Teachers are human, they do make mistakes and they can play favourites or have children they don’t particularly like, anybody who thinks different is a bit naive.

I love how all these complaining parents know exactly what goes on in the classroom, what the teacher does and says, which children misbehave and what punishments they receive and all this without even being there! That's some special ability!

I have also told her that I'm monitoring all the punishments she gets so that I can decide for myself whether it is unfair or not.
So the message she has is that teacher instructions and sanctions may/may not apply based on whether YOU think it is fair so all she has to do is spin it so it's minor (I was ONLY... I was JUST...) and you'll challenge school.
Mistake.

It is not for you to decide if you think a sanction is right. If you have a concern then you raise it politely through the correct channels and don't bring your child into it.

is that she questions adults and children. The teacher labelled this as 'rude' 'completely unacceptable', 'insolent', 'would not be tolerated' etc. but I wasn't able to judge whether she has genuinely been insolent or not since I wasn't given any specific examples.
That's because there is a MASSIVE difference between a child asking a genuine question and being rude and insolent.
Your daughter is being disruptive and the teacher has been in touch to say so. She shouts out, does not follow instructions and has been rude and insolent (which you just see as asking questions). She has thrown another pupils belongings to the floor and as a result of all of these is being moved to the front in the hope she will not be even more disruptive.
This.

And then there is the link between disruptuve and rude students and parents who claim the teacher is picking on them.

Interestingly enough, I have never had a polite, well-behaved child claim I am picking on them.

It's perfectly possible that your DD is being more disruptive than you or she realise; it's also possible that the teacher has got a bee in her bonnet about your DD and is coming down on her too heavily. There's a small possibility that your DD's teacher habitually takes against a child and makes their life a misery. It's pretty much impossible for any of us to tell which is going on here, but what we do know is that it's making your daughter miserable and making her really dislike going to school, so it needs to be sorted.

I would ask for a meeting with the teacher and tell her that DD is finding it difficult to meet expectations and it's making her unhappy. Ask for the teacher's help. You will get a good sense I think from a meeting as to which it is, but hopefully it will help whichever is the reality.