To wonder if it's adhd or just plain naughtiness

[Phuquocdreams]

My son has just started school and seems to have run into trouble immediately. Not listening, jumping up from his seat, pushing his chair around. Today he spat at a classroom assistant ☹️ The teacher has started a book with stickers that comes home with every day, writing his behaviours each day so I can see how is he doing. He has had problems with childminders before - in fact two have cited difficulties with him as a reason for quitting. We also had constant problems at his nursery when he started at 2.5 years - hitting other kids, being overly boisterous in play - although his preschool teacher said he made great progress in the year with her ( he was part-time in the afternoons as I was on maternity leave so I think I had some of his energy worn off by the time he went in). But then other times he is good as gold, can play be himself, his new nanny thinks he is a lovely warm living boy ( though school may have him tired out for her?) Its an awful thought but is he just a naughty kid? Are we failing as parents? My husband is not a natural disciplinarian and would get more annoyed with the people raising the behaviour than the behaviour itself. I find myself getting shouty and struggle not to lose my temper with him sometimes, always biting my tongue. I just feeling a bit hopeless today.

I wouldn’t discipline but I would sit him down and talk to him about it to make sure he understands why it was wrong and how he should respond in similar situations

I agree with Sirzy - at 4 the response needs to still be fairly 'instant'. Any misdemeanor only needs to be "punished" once ~ so, as it has been dealt with at school, it would seem unfair to be punished a second time at home too. Talking to him and listening to his perception of what happened and what choices he made might work, but generally, at 4, dc can't remember an incident that happened 5 hours ago.

That said, some dc respond to various reward charts..... so he might get a sticker or stamp on a chart for each small section of the day he has coped well with...... {say 1. Coming in and registration. 2. Assembly 3. carpet time. 4 freeflow time. 5 play time etc. - obvs don't know what his timetable is at school, but it needs to be easily identifiable 'slots' in the day, that aren't too long at first} ..... and when he gets to {? insert number} then that add up to a treat - which will need to be something that motivates him - might be Daddy taking him swimming on a Sunday or something. The important thing is that he doesn't have to get 100% excellent behaviour to earn his reward, he can still 'pull it back' if he has a bad start to a day, etc. However, this would need to be instigated by school really as it is they who would have to be doing it.

Hi. DS was a bit like this and we still have issues now he is 9. I don't think we've really got to the bottom of it and it goes in waves - we will have months where things are fine, then we will get a flare-up with letters home from school, problems with attention and playground fighting. We have wondered about ADHD and started down the road of getting an assessment, then stopped as we had a stretch of pretty normal behaviour - but we are starting to think about whether to pursue it again.

Anyway: ADHD diagnosis probably far too premature at 4 and even if you got it, the only real difference it makes (other than your own peace of mind) is that it opens up the possibility of treatment with drugs, which he is too young for anyway.

1 on 1 attention does help, which is far easier said than done. We also have a younger sibling. I ended up going down to a part time week, not just for this reason but it was part of it. We've also had childcare turnover, and we tend to have flare ups at the start of new school years. Me being part time has not 'solved' it but it does at least mean I am more available to speak to the teachers and just be in touch with his day to day life, so we notice problems earlier.

So... I don't have the answers but like others I wouldn't fixate on ADHD diagnosis at this early stage, but there is no harm in looking up the techniques which are used with ADHD type kids and trying those out. With ours, the calmer things are at home the better; exercise helps but it can go too far and make him too wired; we've stopped computer games as it made behaviour worse; quality chill out time is important e.g. family movie night; rewards rather than punishment if at all possible.

AIBU isn't probably an ideal place for this, I'd be interested in following the discussion but you might want to move to Behaviour/development.

Apparently he's done it again. I need to decide whether to discipline or not. He was upset this morning going to school; I think he's off sorts because his dad is away. But it's no excuse. I'm not sure what to do. If he spat in front of me I would do time out or consequences but what to do if he does it in school? I know adhd diagnosis wouldn't make any difference - I wouldn't want him on drugs - but the behavioural training looks like it could help. There is a tiny little kernel in me that thinks, well what if he just has a bad streak, like all those men who grow up to do bad things but that thought is almost unspeakable and I would only say it here. Maybe behaviour is a better forum, I put it here for traffic really (though I knew I was risking being told I was a bad bad full time working mother).

What did School do at the time?

What triggered it?

Typically it would be uncommon to have symptoms oh hyperactivity- impulsivity without symptoms of inattention so you'd also be looking for those.

4 is very young to think about ADHD though because symptoms suggestive of inattention and hyperactivity-impulsivity will be seen at that age anyway (needing instructions repeated, difficulty listening, poor concentration, easily distracted, losing things, fidgeting, butting in, impatient etc etc)

As a teacher, if you are seriously concerned I would take him to the GP.

No 4 year old has a 'bad streak' btw. They're just being 4!

Sorry - pressed reply too soon!
Because school cannot do much to support ADHD diagnosis as it is a medical condition. GP can have lots of other support available which school can’t access. He is unlikely to get a diagnosis because is he is so young but having a record will support in the future of issues continue (believe it or not, lots of parents take their 14/15 year olds to the docs to see if they can find a medical condition that will get them extra time in exams!)

From what you have said t sounds like he hasn’t been disciplined enough . I know a family where the Dad is like your dh and the boys are just awful . Really naughty and constantly pushing boundaries . The parents are very well spoken and lovely but just not tough enough . If you are working all the one is it possible he has used this behaviour to try and get your attention? Spitting is very worrying if he doesn’t have any sn !

You can pay for a private ed psych report though to find out the answer . If the school want to wait and see just go round them .

There is plenty Schools can do to support ADHD diagnosis!

Re the attention thing, how does that work if I'm not there at the time s his behaviour isn't attracting my attention? At 4 is he thinking if he misbehaves in school he'll get more attention at home, but it doesn't work like that. He gets more attention if he's been good in school and got all his stickers.

It’s a learned behaviour , so if he gets attention for bad behaviour then he gets attention regardless of wether you are there or not . I’m not saying that’s what it is , just an idea . Have you spoken to him about it , does he seem to understand ? Does he show empathy with the teacher he spat on?

Your little boy needs help and support to follow instructions and social expectations. A diagnosis and label aren't as important as helping him gain these skills.

My son has language disorder, the most important thing I can do is understand needs learning needs and teach him the skills he needs ( a way suitable for him).

Please speak to your son's senco and start to get him help. He may have additional needs, he may not but he does need adults to help him learn behave in an expectable manner. I doubt he is happy with how school is either...

If he has ADHD it won't have much of an impact if he gets attention for the behaviour or not, it's a disorder of executive functioning and lack of inhibition.

For a second incidence of spitting at school then, yes, I'd have a serious talk and some consequences at home. I don't think they're too young to understand that, at four. Spitting is, IMO, in a different league of behaviour to little kids jostling/grabbing/not sharing. It's not a temporary failure of empathy or patience, especially if it happens more than once. It's very aggressive and the spitter's only 'reward' is shock and negative attention. Do you know what prompted this?

I also think you need your DH to seriously rethink his position, because his apparent need to minimize the behaviour is very unfair to your son. He's so little, and all he knows about acceptable behaviour comes from the adults around him. Even if his father never openly shows contempt or disapproval for discipline, children pick up on attitudes and it must be terribly confusing for him, getting completely different ideas about what is okay. You said he talks about his good heart and his bad heart? I know that's not an uncommon idea, with kids, but it also suggests he doesn't feel entirely in control of his behaviour. Again - not rare, with younger kids (especially tired ones who've just started school), but something to pick up on if he's feeling bounced between two very different standards of behaviour (between you and your DH, or home and school).

You say two childminders have quit as a result of his behaviour, and he had constant trouble at nursery, and now trouble from the start at school. He's very young, but it's clear this is a sustained issue, not a series of one-offs. I would think he's beginning to associate education or other care settings with being reprimanded, and this can compound as he gets older. It must be hard for him to develop positive relationships with caregivers. And it's so unfair, because it's obviously not his fault. Your husband needs to work out why it's more important for him to maintain his laid-back approach to discipline when his son's constantly paying the price.

(And by disclipline I don't mean some archaic system of penalties, obviously! More a consistent framework which enables your son to enjoy himself whilst behaving in a way which doesn't earn him constant problems outside the home.)

He's only 4. I bet he's a bright young thing. Re the spitting, do you think he'd understand about germs and how spitting spreads them? Something scientific you could look at together?

You sound like you're really on the ball with this. His dad needs to get on board too and stop blaming other people.

I don't think I'd punish further. Maybe better to have a nice reward if he's managed to get a certain number of stickers.

My nephew is like this and he is a million times worse when he has sugar . Although I think his diet needs assessing on a deeper level. I would get him a supplement like this
www.yournutritionshop.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?Search=Yes&sppp=20&page=1&Keyword=Mindlinx&category=ALL&highprice=&lowprice=&allwords=Mindlinx&exact=&atleast=&without=&cprice=&searchfields=

Also completely strip back his diet and don't let him have school meals . Often children presenting symptoms of behavioural and learning problems can be lacking in iodine or other vitamins and minerals .

Lavender oil on his comforter or pillow at night for sleep . My girls always sleep better when I use it . Good luck .
Try searching iodine deficiency symptoms in children .

No idea about your son.
But so you know, all areas differ. 2 of my children were diagnosed with adhd aged 4, and medicated from aged 5 (the youngest is usually 6, but our consultant was happy to prescribe in our situation).
They had been under consultant care since ages 3 & 2 so it was a slow steady process to make the diagnosis, seen by ed psych in school etc.
If you feel your child needs help then do reach out and ask for it OP, it can be a slow process to get a diagnosis if there is one.
If there isnt a medical issue, at least you know, and you can be referred for parenting help & behaviour support

Just to say - I have two boys, now at top end of primary, neither with ADHD or behavioural issues - but they both (one more than the other) went through a brief spitting phase at around 4 yo. It's horrible, but I don't think in itself it's crazy unusual.

One also hates busy 'overload' type situations (no major sensory problems - it's just not at all his comfort zone ) - but at the age of 3/4 this was occasionally expressed as quite an angry scared reaction, with "naughty" behaviour. Like, he kicked & bit his teacher once in reception. It didn't mean he had any overall issue.

All that said, I agree with the advice that any pattern emerging over a longer time frame would be more concerning. Occasional incidents are not happy things, but you would not need to read much in to them.

You are not a bad full time working mother!! Don't even go there. These things are genetic, I have no doubts I have 2 children, one has ADHD - the other does not. Their behaviour could not be more different. Adhd causes impulsivity, attention seeking behaviour, lack of attention, anger, lack of inhibition. The more you say the more convinced I am that you should get him assessed or at least seen by an early years psychologist. This kind of behaviour is obviously out of the ordinary and there is no harm in getting the best support for you and him . I wish I'd done it earlier . Read some books about how to deal with bad behaviour. get yourself educated - and preferably by some knowledgable professionals or experienced parents rather than just taking the words of some randoms on mumsnet, half of whom seem that ADHD doesn't exist and it's all down to a lack of attentive parenting.

Some kids cope fine with both parents working - however it doesn't sound like he is able to. The fact that 2 childminders have expressed concern, nursery expressed concern, and now school are.
You DH needs to accept that there is a problem.
There is nothing wrong with pursuing a career whilst kids are young. It is fine if everything is going well and kids are settled in a good nursery or you have a long term childminder/nanny.
Either you or DH need to be around more - there is no other option unless you want things to get worse.
The fact that you have come on here would suggest that you are worried and want things to get better. There might be little changes you can make initially that might help improve things. However without knowing your day-to-day routine it is hard to suggest things. It might be something simple like earlier bedtime/more fresh air/less screen time/less sweets/less extra-curricular clubs.
Try and be kind to him - don't punish him again for something in school. He is so little it is difficult to receive a punishment hours after the event. Reward him for every little thing he does well at home. Maybe a jar of marbles (we used to do this) and they get to choose the rewards to 10/20/30 etc.. and they are little rewards like watching a movie/going to the museum/buying a comic. This worked really well with mine when they were smaller.
Hope things get better & sorry if you are feeling judged.