To wonder if it's adhd or just plain naughtiness

[Phuquocdreams]

My son has just started school and seems to have run into trouble immediately. Not listening, jumping up from his seat, pushing his chair around. Today he spat at a classroom assistant ☹️ The teacher has started a book with stickers that comes home with every day, writing his behaviours each day so I can see how is he doing. He has had problems with childminders before - in fact two have cited difficulties with him as a reason for quitting. We also had constant problems at his nursery when he started at 2.5 years - hitting other kids, being overly boisterous in play - although his preschool teacher said he made great progress in the year with her ( he was part-time in the afternoons as I was on maternity leave so I think I had some of his energy worn off by the time he went in). But then other times he is good as gold, can play be himself, his new nanny thinks he is a lovely warm living boy ( though school may have him tired out for her?) Its an awful thought but is he just a naughty kid? Are we failing as parents? My husband is not a natural disciplinarian and would get more annoyed with the people raising the behaviour than the behaviour itself. I find myself getting shouty and struggle not to lose my temper with him sometimes, always biting my tongue. I just feeling a bit hopeless today.

[Phuquocdreams]

I need to focus on sleep for all 3 of us really (excluding dh!)

[BackforGood]

He has had problems with childminders before - in fact two have cited difficulties with him as a reason for quitting. We also had constant problems at his nursery when he started at 2.5 years - hitting other kids, being overly boisterous in play

I think this says more than any examples of individual things he has done.
Yes, we can look for reasons around a particular incident or even a personality clash with one care giver, but it is the consistency of his challenging behaviour, across 2 x CMers plus 1 x Nursery + the school that makes me think that yes, there must be an issue.

I'm in the UK and in my Authority they don't give ADHD diagnoses before the child is 7 as so much of the diagnosis for ADHD fits any toddler anyway. However, in a way, that isn't important at this point, as, diagnosis or not, your concern needs to be about how you can work with the school to help him work towards the challenging behaviour becoming less and the good behaviour becoming more.

I have no idea what your parenting is like of course, and your hours don't seem ridiculous to me, but it is a fact that some children are more challenging, but that means they have to work harder to behave and not that it is an excuse for not being able to behave.

[Jellycatspyjamas]

I do think you're catastrophisung a bit - he's only 4, he has a very long road ahead of him for you to be worrying about him having a criminal record as an adult. You're right to be thinking about how to help him manage his behaviour but try to separate out the problematic from the just being 4.

Maybe identify a couple of key things to work on and focus on that rather than trying to catch every bit of undesirable behaviour. Look for strategies to support those particular behaviours and once they're sorted pick the next urgent things.

[SheRaaarghPrincessOfPower]

The only constructive advice I can give is to if you can put him to bed a little bit earlier. my children go to bed at 8 o'clock but they pass out immediately so it's fine. if hr wakes up 6 o'clock if he's taking an hour to go to bed then 8 o'clock is too late. I appreciate the work full time and that will mean no time with him during the week but that's possibly the best thing you can do to help his behaviour. Speak to the school speak to the senco and speak to your GP

[Wolfiefan]

Addiction? He's 4. You are hugely catastrophising.
Agree expectations and strategies with DH.
Deal with behaviour as it occurs. Then a clean slate.

[SheRaaarghPrincessOfPower]

Also, ADHD does not equal naughty.

[crimsonlake]

The spitting at a grown up is disgusting and really concerns me. There is little sitting at tables in reception as they learn through play.

[JonSnowsWife]

He's also on the young side for his class. Which isn't helping because I know adhd is diagnosed more in those who are younger

Not necessarily. DS has been under the community Paeditrician for five years. Despite concerns from the beginning he has only recently got a diagnosis of ASD&ADHD.

Have a chat with the school senco.

[Corcory]

I have two ADHD children and certainly your DS does have some of the traits but so do many 4 year olds. We try and practice therapeutic parenting, something you might find useful looking into. I would definitely say going to bed earlier. I would also say that some quiet time in the evening would be good it wind down then he may well go to sleep easier. Our DS also has sensory processing disorder which impacts on how well he can cope with 'busy ' situations ad will act up and become quite aggressive if in a situation he can't cope with. Some of the techniques used for this might also help to settle him. As a rule ADHD is not diagnosed where we live until 6/7years old so he is too young to tell I would say.

[IntoTheDeep]

So he's only 4?

DS1 was referred to a paediatrician when he was 4 after school raised concerns over his development. The paediatrician told us that they wouldn't assess a child for ADHD until they were at least 6, IIRC it's because a lot of ADHD behaviours are developmentally normal in toddlers and younger children, but that a child without ADHD will have grown out of most of them by the age of 6.

I know that lack of sleep badly affects DS1's behaviour, and he's always tended to get more active as he gets tireder, so I'd second advice to look at your DS's sleep, see if you can get him to bed earlier for more sleep and see if that improves things.

Exercise can also be helpful with DS1 - could you try fitting some sort of exercise into your morning before school starts, to give your DS a chance to burn off some energy before he has to go and sit still in class? Things like bouncing on a trampoline at home before you set off, or getting to school 15 minutes early so he can run around in the school playground for a bit?

DS1 has also been responding better in the long term to strategies like ignoring undesirable behaviour as much as possible, whilst making an effort to notice and praise desirable behaviour. Easier said than done sometimes because the undesirable behaviour tends to be more easily noticed, but it's something we're continuing to work towards.

[Sprinklestar]

He needs your time more than anything, you get out what you put in with children. I think it's all too easy to look for a diagnosis when actually, better parenting could be the answer. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh and there may well be a medical answer. He's still young. Plenty of time to learn what is acceptable and not if he's taught well.

[JonSnowsWife]

I think it's all too easy to look for a diagnosis when actually, better parenting could be the answer. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh and there may well be a medical answer

That's rather unhelpful, and wrong.

In many cases seeking a diagnosis is anything but easy.

[JonSnowsWife]

I need to focus on sleep for all 3 of us really (excluding dh!)

This bit stood out for me OP. Does your DH sleep through and sleep in and leave you dealing with everything because you sound shattered bless you. If so, your DH needs to step up.

Even if your DS does turn out to have ADHD. Certain strategies can be helpful.

[JonSnowsWife]

Sorry, posted before I had finished. DD is NT and benefits from the same sort of routine we have in place for DS. Both are grumpy (and I mean grumpy) if they don't get enough sleep. Things which help get DCs to bed for example is telling them they have to have PJ's on teeth cleaned etc and in bed by 7:30pm. They can then have half an hour on their phones.

I do feel for you OP. DS is a ridiculous light sleeper and he talks in his sleep!

[BouleBaker]

You could be describing my son 3 years ago! After quite a struggle trying to work out what was going on we got to a point where we realised all his poor behaviour was attention seeking. We made sure he had lots of one-to-one time with each of us, rewards positive behaviours while ignoring negative behaviours and were very careful that his younger brother didn’t get more attention or more leeway in behaviour than him. We also had to get a lot better at setting and maintaining clear boundaries.

It was bloody hard work but he’s changed so much now, and is an absolute star at school. We had also wondered about ADHD to be honest but it wouldn’t even cross your mind now.

[bastardkitty]

So your new nanny is great because she does all the cooking and housework? I don't think your son is getting enough attention and input from his parents or carers. He sounds ike he needs more contact and interest. He needs to be tired from doing things after school. I would aim for 7pm bedtime for a 4 year old at school, especially if he needs an hour or more to wind down before sleep.

[Squeegle]

To me he does sound a bit like my son who was diagnosed with ADHD when he was 12. I wish we had thought more about it earlier when he was younger as I would have been different with him. Obviously I don't know your son, but there is no downside for you to educate yourself about how you can help him whether it is adhd or not he obviously has some behaviours which are challenging for him and you.

Empathy and understanding, recognition that he is not necessarily being "naughty", but that he does find it very difficult to conform, are really important. Routine, consistency and calm boundaries are also important. There is no harm in looking at his behaviours and what is recommended in the case of ADHD and applying it. For any of those who think ADHD is "easy" to either diagnose or live with I think that you really should find out a bit more about it. It's hard for everyone- not least because of the lack of understanding by other parents and by the school. There is nothing more annoying than people telling you are doing this wrong and that wrong, when their own child is neurotypical and reacts in a very different way. So stick with it OP, be aware but not obsessive - maybe have a look at the ADHD foundation website and familiarise yourself with the techniques that will help. All the best to you

[Sirzy]

I am slightly concerned that you seem to think ADHD would excuse the behaviour? Maybe my sleep deprived brain is misunderstanding though.

Firstly you need to sit down with you dh, you need to come up with a consistent system of reward and punishment and you both need to stick to it - nanny will need to follow the same. Children need consistency

Same goes for routine for a lot of children so try keeping the day as routined as possible so he known what is happening and there are no shocks to confuse him if possible.

Keep a diary of behaviours (and ask School to aswell) and see if you can identify any triggers for the behaviour - what happens just before he starts being violent? Who is there? Etc etc being one step ahead can often help defuse situations.

[BlackeyedSusan]

what is he like if you give him cola?

if he calms down when you give him caffeine, then seriously consider taking him to the GP for referral for adhd.

read up on related conditions and see if anything stands out. It is really hard to pick out tiredness from school , sensory issues, etc.

do a parenting course. (especially dh) it will either help your parenting, or you can point to it and say we are using xyz strategies and there is still an issue.

some of the problem could be dh blaming everyone else and not seeing his behaviour as wrong.

[MargaretTwatyer]

How does he sleep? Disturbed sleep or too little sleep can cause similar problems.

[Callamia]

Where are you based?
I think seeing a paediatrician or psychologist is sensible.

You talk about a family history of difficulties associated with ADHD-like profiles. The inattentive the ADHD is also far more common in females, and I've met a couple of mothers who only considered that as an explanation for their childhood behaviour once their own child was being assessed. Sleep problems are also common, and cause further problems. You're sensible to consider the wider family context to try and understand your own child.

Lots of children have parents who work long hours, and are just fine. It doesn't sound like your parenting is so out of step, but I think your husband is perhaps in denial about the possibility of your son having a potential problem.

I would definitely look for help early on - ADHD doesn't need to be medicated (if that's a concern), often good cognitive behavioural principles can help. ADHD doesn't 'excuse' any behaviour, but it might help to explain some of the things happening here. It's very unusual for a child to experience childcare quitting or exclusion in the early years, and these would be flags enough for me to seek some kind of assessment.

[Phuquocdreams]

Re exercise, he cycles or scoots 1.2 miles home most days, I think it would be too much to do that in the morning too. When he's a bit bigger I'll cycle with him to school, at the moment dh drives him or I take him on the back of my bike. He's tired when he gets home so so far I've let the nanny stay in the house with him, let him watch a bit of tv too.
Re attention - he does get attention, he's v fond of his brother but yes he does get jealous too sometimes. It's funny, I was told that most mothers do in fact go part time in the uk, but here, all my friends work full time, and their dh's wouldn't work from home/have random mornings or afternoons to spend with the children unlike dh...I would love more flexible work practices, I think you most take it for granted! My hours are considerably better than when he was a young toddler. Sorry, got to get them both ready, will respond more later...

[Avebury]

Honestly it's hard to hear but I think he needs more time and attention from his parents and much firmer boundaries and a consistent routine.
Your biggest problem sounds like your DH refusing to see that there is a problem.

[Phuquocdreams]

If he has done something wrong in school, should I be disciplining at home too? I think not at the age of 4 as they should have dealt with it at the time? What do you think?