Young people deserve better than this

[yoyoyoy]

My daughter is looking for her first career type job after finishing University so applied for a job that she felt would make use of her degree . She was called to an interview with them where she was told that a paid role was probably going to be available in the future but in the mean time could she do some unpaid work experience for them for an unspecified period .She told them that she could do a couple of weeks w/e but was unable to commit to any more unpaid work as she needed money to live on , she asked if a paid job was definitely going to happen and on this they were vague . She argued with them that if she committed to unpaid w/e with no end date they had no incentive to offer a paid job . They also told her that weekend work was often required even when on w/e with no mention of time off in lieu so basically 7 out of 7 .AIBU to think that this sort of unpaid w/e is all very well if Mummy and Daddy are loaded but for normal working class kids this is impossible to do ,it seems like cheap labour . Is this just a way to make sure that only the "right sort" of middle class kids get these sort of jobs as clearly not all parents can afford to let their children live rent free for months (I am on a very limited income). I am very upset for her as the job itself (if indeed there was one)seemed perfect for her skills and experience .

It's shit and unfair but at the same time it's a play on the old adage 'when someone tells you what they're like, listen'. These internships are most common in industries notorious for needing skills on a scale that they can't pay for, but which can attract people anyway due to having a cool image. You have to question if it's a good idea to get into these industries when you're always going to be in a buyer's market. Let the rich kids styke/write/code etc 'for exposure' if they want. More fool them.

OP re NGO sector, unless she wants to be a frontline worker or can get into a good structured grad scheme, I'd advise getting into non- profit later in your career. Do something in for-profit first. I work in the development sector and have an investment/ finance background

'It's all very well if mummy and daddy are loaded'! Of course that's true to a certain extent but sounds a little chippy. If you really want to go for something you can, regardless of your parents wealth. I know because I did it myself. In your daughters shoes I would not have been quibbling about 1 or 2 weeks extra unpaid work. Its a tiny part of her life to set her up for life. Stay on friends sofas, relatives, hostels etc..I do not agree in principle with unpaid work but if it's a sought after job choice she really has do it or change career paths.

bloody hell.

two weeks maybe, for free. w/e but the company was taking the piss.

yazoop has some good advice^

No yanbu and charities & the arts are the absolute fucking worst for it.

Best bet is to just get whatever job she can and work her way up from there, don't hold out for something amazing as her first job.

This is a terrible trend. Poor kids stand no chance. They probably don't have connections in the places these companies exist and even if they did, their friends may not have the space to put them up.

Could she register with a temping agency? Unitemps www.unitemps.com/candidates is one we use at work. The work may be a bit sporadic and unreliable but temping is how I gained experience and got my first permanent job after I dropped out of left university.

Stay on friends sofas, relatives, hostels

And if someone posted on mumsnet saying 'my niece/friends daughter/distant relative' wants to sleep on my sofa for a month free of charge so that she can work for no pay, people would be shouting 'entitled' and 'cheeky fucker'.

It's also assuming that you actually know someone who lives within commuting distance of, presumably, London. When I was a new graduate I didn't know anyone whose sofa I could have slept on because no one I knew lived there.

I agree with others. What exactly does she want to do for at the NGO? Is there anywhere less glamorous where she can do that before a sideways move? She should look for an industry where she can learn transferable skills which, when she mentions it to her friends, gets a baffled look or a yawn or a “really? ”. Because those are the places that will pay you actual cash.

Yazoop is right.Unpaid internships do favour the affluent but she needs to make her way circumventing the old school networks. She needs to widen her horizons and consider alternative pathways to where she wants to go. Most of my children's friends who have gone third sector have masters degrees. Most come from very wealthy families who can subsidise and support them so income is less of an issue.

There are charities and NGOs it is easier to find work with than others. Organisations like the British Council can offer paid internships.
Would she be prepared to 'up sticks' ? Working abroad for something like Varky Foundation would build fantastic networks and be good on a CV. The Aga Khan foundation likewise. Both offer paid opportunities.

Get something interesting on her CV that makes her stand out - Care 4Calais volunteering at weekends, for example. Lots of youngsters run marathons for charity she needs something over and above this. Take on work as Trustee of local small charity. Do prison visiting centre work. The more 'different' the better.

There are ways to do it. I entered an industry in which i had no contacts in a city where I knew no-one. If you are set on something do not let your background hold you back. And make yourself do stand out like the last poster suggested. Volunteer - care for claims etc. Do not just roll of over and say all the jobs are going to the rich kids.

Being paid the going rate for your labour is fine if you are actually capable of doing the job.

I work for a charity and have young people volunteers on my projects for the experience. The bright ones do this whilst they're still students, others after graduation. They volunteer because they have a lot of theoretical knowledge but can't actually do anything - and quite often aren't sure which part of our field they want to specialise in.

I have no qualms about not paying them because they can't yet perform as well as even the most junior member of staff. As soon as they can they start to get interviews and are off into employment - either with us or elsewhere.

barbarian let me guess all the slaves, sorry interns, in your place a middle class funded by mummy and daddy? Funny how many charities drone on about social responsibility and berating the government but cant even pay there interns the min wage.

How about doing unpaid work experience by day and a bar job by night! Or does that sound too much like hard work.

@barbarian the thing is, no graduate is going to know how to do a job before they start. It used to be the employer's responsibility to train graduates and invest time and a bit of money to develop the best talent, which pays off in the long term. Now young people are supposed to have done unpaid internships as students to save the employer from their end of the bargain. This is an even worse abdication of responsibility when you think about the cost of university and the fact some students have to work to be able to afford it.

I just think it is really unfair to say that he bright ones will know to volunteer as students. It isn't that simple, and really we are putting undue pressure on youngsters entering university to know exactly the career path they want to go down, how to go about it while they are still at uni (which they are paying through the nose for), and also to be able to do a ton of unpaid work. Of course, the students in the best position to do all this are those with successful and wealthy parents and those who went to great schools who provide this type of knowledge early on.

At the end of the day, both sides lose out. The employer won't necessarily get the best people by doing it this way, as most will simply have the right background to fund unpaid work and the knowledge of how it all works. Little diversity of thought or experience.

@lethaldrizzle maybe if you are doing a couple of weeks' work experience, but unsustainable for months of actual work. Why shouldn't someone get paid for working? It seems absurd to have to get a second job to subsidise your first job.

Actually as someone who has worked with graduates the best advice I can give anyone on here with DC currently at uni is PLEASE, PLEASE encourage them to work while studying (obvs unless they're doing something with a crazy tonne of contact hours like medicine). You have no idea how much it will help afterwards.

My DSIS is currently in her third year of uni doing English and works 15-20 hours a week. It'll really stand her in good stead when she graduates.

You can ban all internships and encourage companies to recruit people with experience. Good luck for those who haven't got any.

...or those internships could pay minimum wage and actually have a route to future full time positions?

It's a pet peeve that charities and NGOs will claim financial constraints, but the more senior roles are often handsomely rewarded. I don't have an issue with the senior pay, but it does seem to contradict the notion that it would be a big issue to pay a small wage to interns.

TBH this is part of a larger issue in the charity sector & this is a huge reason why I don't work in that sector anymore.

When the general public give to a charity, they want it to go directly to a goat or an abused child or a whale or whatever. They don't want it to go on "admin". Cue barrage of criticism when your accounts come out and people go "ooh tut tut, see how much they pay their staff - see look, they all bought computers!"

It's a general perception that if you're working for a charity, you should be in it out of the kindness of your heart and be perfectly prepared to work for shite money, from a shite computer etc with no benefits whatsoever. Charities lose excellent people that way. I moved into the private sector because I could earn twice as much there and also be treated nicely.

Not paying interns is a huge part of this culture. And FWIW not all CEOs of charities earn great money. The latest one I worked for earned 50k. I appreciate that this probably seems like loads to some people but in London, for the amount of work she did (we are talking 14 hour days 7 days a week, plus crazy amounts of international travel), it was peanuts. And yet we were STILL criticised for paying her that much.

Well then Yazoop how about you give your lavish charitable donations to all the charities that pay all staff the minimum wage? I'm sure they do wonderful work.

There are paid apprenticeships in my sector but not as many as there are people wanting to work in it. No sector is obliged to train twice as many people as it actually needs. Those that don't get them can count themselves out or find another way. Volunteering is one of these ways - or they can go and do something else.

I'm sorry but I think if you want the job that much you will do it. Even if they don't end up employing you, you can put it on your cv and you have connections. I see it as a small amount of time over 40 years of work

I graduated in 2003 and internships were a thing in my sector (media, publishing etc) then but nothing like now. I was desperate to work for a particular film magazine. I did all the right things - I got a job with the same company in a production role, started doing internal freelance writing for the magazine as soon as I was allowed, etc. When a staff writer role finally came up, they advertised it and I applied but of course it was immediately given to the wealthy girl who'd spent almost months working there for nothing - you can't compete with that! My husband and I have already spoken about finding a way to support our twins through unpaid internships in the future (they're 1 now!).

The work experience woman, last I heard was in a senior position for a major broadcaster. Unfortunately the ability to do this does mean you have a huge advantage.

I would recommend signing up with some agencies who place temps in the type of company she wants to work for - work is paid, can go on your CV and if she impresses she could be offered more work. In my last job we hired around 30 temps each year for several months to work on a huge event, the last few weeks of which were in a swanky international destination. Most people hired were recent graduates although most did have some relevant experience whether paid or unpaid, experience at university etc.

I completely agree @demonbaby!

The unpaid internship culture is easily perpetuated by the argument that it is not for profit etc. Completely unfair - if you want good people, you have to pay them properly (at the bottom and the top).

Agree that 50k is obscenely low for the stresses and responsibilities of a CEO. No wonder people get disillusioned. But there are organisations that pay more than that, even at mid-level (usually the bigger names, which can be the worst offenders when it comes to unpaid internships...)

@barbarian there is a difference between volunteering (flexible, not expecting full time levels of work, not just done by young graduates, can be fit around actual job etc) to an unpaid internship. Of course, volunteering is great experience and can benefit all parties involved, but you should be able to make a allowed to make a living at the same time and it shouldn't be a way of filling actual roles for free.

Btw, I'm not suggesting charities should train more people than they need. It sounds like your organisation has a small number of paid apprenticeships that are competitive. There isn't much wrong with that! It is much fairer to have a tough process to get paid roles than unpaid work that is based on your ability to afford it.