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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Young people deserve better than this

83 replies

yoyoyoy · 03/10/2017 13:48

My daughter is looking for her first career type job after finishing University so applied for a job that she felt would make use of her degree . She was called to an interview with them where she was told that a paid role was probably going to be available in the future but in the mean time could she do some unpaid work experience for them for an unspecified period .She told them that she could do a couple of weeks w/e but was unable to commit to any more unpaid work as she needed money to live on , she asked if a paid job was definitely going to happen and on this they were vague . She argued with them that if she committed to unpaid w/e with no end date they had no incentive to offer a paid job . They also told her that weekend work was often required even when on w/e with no mention of time off in lieu so basically 7 out of 7 .AIBU to think that this sort of unpaid w/e is all very well if Mummy and Daddy are loaded but for normal working class kids this is impossible to do ,it seems like cheap labour . Is this just a way to make sure that only the "right sort" of middle class kids get these sort of jobs as clearly not all parents can afford to let their children live rent free for months (I am on a very limited income). I am very upset for her as the job itself (if indeed there was one)seemed perfect for her skills and experience .

OP posts:
livefornaps · 03/10/2017 16:06

@TTtb what if she was already working part time during her degree just to pay her living expenses? It might have eaten up all her time and left none for unpaid stuff. I think saying "she only has herself to blame" is unnecessary given we don't know the circumstances.

I agree @Creambun, I think social mobility has all but disappeared.

rogueantimatter · 03/10/2017 16:14

Ttbb You're victim blaming. Work for nothing for an unspecified amount of time? Even though it's illegal. You sound like a very unkind person who has no imagination from that post.

DragonLips · 03/10/2017 16:15

The problem is that the job probably received LOADS of applications. There are so many graduates chasing entry level jobs. Sometimes I think unpaid experience is a way for employers to filter the cv pile down. I also think some industries equates willingness to do voluntary/unpaid work for eagerness to do the job. It also means the employee will hit the ground running so should require less training having already been in the job albeit unpaid so saves training time/costs. So if you get unpaid experience you get the above head starts above those who don't. Any unpaid experience your DD can get will help give her an advantage.

fakenamefornow · 03/10/2017 16:20

YANBU

If I was king of the world the first thing I'd do is ban unpaid internships.

This makes me so angry, it's wrong on so many levels. In fact, can anybody direct me to a petition I can sign asking them to be banned?

fakenamefornow · 03/10/2017 16:25

I knew somebody who worked in the fashion industry for big name houses. Some of the people in the office were on their third unpaid full time internships and were doing a proper full time professional job. Why would any employer pay staff in these industries when loads are lining up to do the jobs for free.

FakePlasticTeaLeaves · 03/10/2017 16:33

YANBU. Back in the day my first role was an internship for 6 months, and the only reason I could do it unpaid was because I was in commuting distance from London and my grandparents helped me out financially.

It is massively unfair for those who don't live near/in London (or whichever city) as you can't relocate on the basis of unpaid work. And for those who have no one to help them with expenses for 6 months, you have no opportunity at all. Internships should really not be allowed.

coddiwomple · 03/10/2017 17:06

the first thing I'd do is ban unpaid internships.

it would be a shame, there are many companies who would not have the budget or would want to employ someone instead of the 3 or 4 interns they have at one time. Said interns are employed to a) do a few basic things on a very entry-level AND b)to keep things interesting and valuable for them, they are included on projects and trained in real life situation. People spend a lot of time to mentor them on those projects, because it's part of the deal.
They leave with experience on their CV, and everybody is happy. Often one or 2 even stay on as a full employee, so they have a job at the end.

coddiwomple · 03/10/2017 17:08

You could argue that some people can't afford university either

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 03/10/2017 17:08

Welcome to the modern job market.

It isn't new. This type of thing was going on when I graduated decades ago.

jay55 · 03/10/2017 18:26

I recently did a project at a big high street bank. The graduates were being paid less than I was when I graduated almost twenty years ago, and several of them had masters and experience.
Things are really rough for recent grads and it is disgusting.

Youcanttaketheskyfromme · 03/10/2017 19:14

Indeed - my first graduate job a few years ago paid £14500 a year.

And specified a degree was a requirement. Some reward.

I've also seen "graduate" jobs in my industry requesting 2 years experience !

Anymajordude · 03/10/2017 19:16

About 20 years ago when I was starting out this happened lots in the big auction houses. I'm sure it's worse now.

FuzzyCustard · 03/10/2017 19:18

YANBU. I was a director of a charity and fought the CEO and trustees tooth and nail against internships for the very reasons you have outlined OP. It is NOT fair, and not helpful to the sector as a whole.
We did not have any internships on my watch. (but then I got made redundant)

5rivers7hills · 03/10/2017 19:19

You could argue that some people can't afford university either

There are full loans to cover university plus time in the summer holidays to work.

5rivers7hills · 03/10/2017 19:22

They leave with experience on their CV, and everybody is happy.

Yes, everyone who's parents are rich enough to cover their children's living costs are happy. Huzzah for the rich. Rich keep getting richer and keep the poor in their place.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 03/10/2017 19:23

Things are really rough for recent grads and it is disgusting.

I'm not sure why people think this is a recent thing. It really isn't. It's just that a new group of people are now experiencing it.

As I said above this was happening when I graduated. Nothing has changed. It isn't new.

Nonibaloni · 03/10/2017 19:28

I've probably got this wrong cause I've had a long grouchy day but all the engineering internships I was looking at were paid and for a fixed time. Because there's a massive shortage of engineers and companys are desperately to grab graduates.
So it's the worst kind of cause and affect. If people keep working for free why would a company pay them?
And I'm sure it is illegal now, although who's got the funding to prosecute.

BeatriceBeaudelaire · 03/10/2017 19:35

I’ve been looking for jobs since August and have been rejected even from unpaid work .... I just finished my Masters degree from a Top 10.
It is fucking shit.

cluelessnewmum · 03/10/2017 19:56

Unfortunately it is just the reality of some industries so your DD will have to work out how much she wants to work in that industry.

I got my foot in the door in a highly competitive industry through an unpaid internship and I don't have parents who bank rolled me.

I worked locally in an unrelated office job for almost a year (whilst applying for jobs in the industry) and saved up as was living at home. When I moved to London to do an internship I had a reasonable nest egg and I also worked in a bar one weekend day.

It took time and it was knackering, I couldn't do those hours now but when you're young you can do these things. I don't regret it.

My suggestion would be for DD to take offer of internship part time eg 3 days a week and do paid work the other 2 (plus one weekend day if poss). Once she has some experience on her cv she should find something paid pretty quickly.

coddiwomple · 03/10/2017 23:02

Huzzah for the rich. Rich keep getting richer and keep the poor in their place.
don't be daft. If people need a job, they are hardly rich for a start or they wouldn't bother.

There are full loans to cover university plus time in the summer holidays to work. then if they can survive during the uni years, they can survive for another year as an apprentice.

if you look for excuses, you will always find one. There are tens if not hundreds of young graduate applying for internship. It clearly works.

OhtoblazeswithElvira · 03/10/2017 23:10

Disgusting. This should be illegal and companies should be prosecuted. It doesn't have to be like this - the government is enabling this.

coddiwomple · 03/10/2017 23:15

This should be illegal and companies should be prosecuted.

over-reacting much?
Why not paying a salary to all students, so everybody can afford university? Wouldn't that be fair? and world peace

Someoneasdumbasthis · 03/10/2017 23:39

I work in PR. And it's now policy in the industry that all interns are paid minimum wage. Quite right too. PR used to be terrible for unpaid roles. Whole business plans depended on it!

Yazoop · 04/10/2017 00:25

It is so hard when you are from an unconnected, normal, working family and can't afford to do the unpaid internships and so on. In so many fields, it really isn't a meritocracy, at least at graduate level.

The advice I'd give your daughter is.... Think creatively. All the usual routes into popular fields like non-profit are extremely competitive and usually based on doing loads of unpaid work. Play the long game instead - focus on getting a job in any field that will enable her to gain experience and skills that she can later can take into the non-profit sector and be paid well for. Experience in HR, logistics, governance, finance, and lots of other areas, can be directly relevant to NGOs. I would encourage her to explore the other ways people get into the sector. She should research the career paths of senior people in the field - she may be surprised at how many came in from business or via an unorthodox route.

I was in a very similar situation to your daughter a decade ago, in that I graduated with a Master's degree from a well-regarded university and felt a bit lost - I had dreamed of a certain career route but it seemed almost impossible, a road built on unpaid internships and having a "wide network". I got into a bit of a rut, living back at home and not able to work for free.

My Dad urged me just to get any work I could, as it would build up my confidence and get me earning. So I did some odd jobs and then some temp work. That led to me saving a little bit money - but instead of using it to fund a few weeks' working for free, I headed off to Australia on a working holiday visa instead, and managed to pick up some pretty well-paid temp work in a publishing house there for a bit. The work wasn't what I wanted to do long term, but I had picked up the travel bug, some real world work experience, and a lot more confidence.

From this, I applied for, and got, a paid graduate internship in a bank (again, not my preference but enabled me to travel and to gain skills) and this became a full-time position. I made several sideways moves in this firm to gain the skills and experience that would eventually enable me to move (in my early thirties) into the type of work I'd originally wanted to be in, but at a much more senior level.

Ok, it took me a while - but I enjoyed the process. I spent my twenties working in offices across the world, met some great people, and earned enough money to buy a place with my partner in my twenties (which would have not have been possible if I'd been in my preferred field all along, given the low pay). If your daughter is curious and bright (and it sounds like she is!), there are ways she can forge her own path.

Sorry to waffle on a bit - but if I'd known that there were alternatives to ultra-competitive and unfair unpaid internships when I in a post-graduation rut, I would have been a lot more confident in myself and my future.

OhtoblazeswithElvira · 04/10/2017 06:17

overreacting much?

I am expecting people who work to be paid the going rate for their labour. Shocking, I know!