To think some children are budding psychopaths?

[brasty]

I know being a psychopath does not mean that you will be violent or criminal. It does mean that you do not really feel empathy for anyone else and have a lack of a conscience.

I think rightly children are not labelled as psychopaths, but I do think children who are showing these traits should get proper treatment and their parents should get proper advice and support.

Children showing psychopathic traits are those pre puberty children who are bullies, setting fires, lying routinely, showing no empathy for others, deliberately cruel to animals, and for whom punishment has no impact. A child has to have a number of these issues, many children bully for example, but still show empathy towards people they love.

But at the moment, parents with children showing these traits, receive little help, and are often blamed for causing their child's behavior. There seems to be resistance to seeing this in young children.

The problem I have with born with a different brain goes beyond it's lack in specificity and the direction of causation (though both are valid concerns).

born with a different brain makes it sound like the psychopath himself is not to blame for his actions. But I want to hold him responsible. I have no sympathy for born evil psychopaths (though I do for the parents).

A documentary on this mentioned upthread, showed how psychopathic traits are linked to 9 different biological factors, include genes. The more of these you have, the more likely you are to show psychopathic traits. The documentary maker found out he had all 9, and his family and friends were not at all surprised.

hazell42 Mon 02-Oct-17 12:20:02
"Wouldn't be a whole lot of point. There is no cure for psycohopathy, so little point in referring anyone anywhere. If they weren't psychopaths, labelling them as such will do nothing for their self-esteem or mental health, and if they are, well there's nothing that can be done anyway."

Apart from the possibility that using the right techniques might actually help to prevent tragedies, there are also the parents to be considered.

If there is no diagnosis- what is the alternative? That everybody will assume, as so many posters have assumed on this thread, that there is no smoke without fire and that the parent (yes, read mother!) who seems so loving and conscientious on the surface must have caused the child's behaviour through cruelty and abuse. What do you think it's like to be that parent??? What do you think it does to you, to go through life shattered by being unable to control your child or give them a decent life, and then to know that everybody thinks that of you???

I have spent many years advocating for my dd and trying to get help for her chronic pain and MH issues, knowing all the time that every new professional I came into contact with would assume that I was a neurotic and overprotective parent, knowing that before we could get anywhere I would have to sit through session after session with psychiatrists and consultants trying to teach me not to be neurotic and overprotective, knowing that if I tried to protest, only once, and point out that I was not neurotic and over-protective that would immediately prove that I was, indeed, neurotic and over-protective.

Before we even got to the neurotic and over-protective mother, we had to deal with professionals who thought dd's physical symptoms were caused by abuse. The reasoning was very similar to some on this thread: I don't believe these symptoms would happen for any other reasons/children who have been abused exhibit these behaviours thefore cory's dd must have suffered this treatment.

I came out of those years with something very closely resembling PTSD. It was years before I could concentrate properly on my work and stop obsessing about what had happened to us. And yet my situation was nowhere near as bad as what we are discussing here. I was never afraid of my child hurting anybody else through these delays, though I was very, very afraid that she would kill herself. I can't even imagine what it is like if you have to be afraid that they would kill another child.

Yes, x no of parents are likely to be guilty. Unfortunately we don't know what figure x stands for. Maybe we don't even need to know for interventions to take place. But we need a willingness to engage with the problem- and that means funding.

Yes, I guess you could say He was born with a different brain in that he has these 7 biological factors out of 9, which...

Because otherwise, I'd still tell you that I was born with a different brain too. Again, besides the issue of blame.

I am still advocating born evil, which is shorter, more to the point, and doesn't describe everyone and his cousin too. It is very politically incorrect, but I prefer that over born with a different brain and it's implied victimhood for the psychopath himself.

Excellent post Cory, I can completely relate to your experiences with the pros, I also find it very difficult not to obsess about how much ds was let down, and how the majority of people cannot accept that we are somehow causing our ds's issues, despite us working tirelessly, to the detriment of our health, to keep things ticking over.

I prefer different brain, it implies an innate problem which we (parents? society? Schools?) can seek to improve, by finding appropriate strategies and therapies. To me it doesn't imply victim, it simply points to a need for help and closer monitoring of the situation.
Born evil implies no hope at all, the child (and their family) are written off.

I wonder if boys/men with these traits are more likely to be criminals? Because women and men could have these traits in equal numbers - nature; but the specific way they are manifested could be nurture?

That's an interesting thought, brasty.

My Sil is extremely parasitical; she lives off other people to an extent that beggars the mind (also a psychopathic trait). What is interesting is that she's most likely got away with this for so many years because she's female. Had she been male, her parasitism would have been noticed and challenged more; it wouldn't have been possible for a man to live off others in the manner she has for such a long time.

So I do think culture and gendered expectations play a part into how these traits may manifest in social terms. There's no need to engage in criminal behaviour if you can take what you want through other means, iyswim.

That said, I know she has very little regard for the law.

PickingOakum Yes those with psychopathic traits don't care about rules or the law. But I know that some research has shown that many will follow it, if they can get what they want anyway, just like your SIL.
Some of the strategies used in the few projects that have tried to reform criminals with psychopathic traits, is to show that if they follow the law, it is in their self interest. Because morality or appeals to empathy, does not work.

If you read Bowlby's theory of attachment, he believed that if a baby did not bond with a primary care giver within their first few months, it could lead to that baby growing up to become an emotionless psychopath. Attachment is key to healthy social and emotional development.

Of course emotional attachment is important, but I think Bowlby overstates it. There have been children found who have been extremely neglected - just left in a room and given food. No interaction. They tend to have lifelong problems, but some do indeed form attachments. There does not in reality seem to be a very narrow window of a few months in which to form an attachment.

Attachment theory often doesn't take into account neurological differences, which can be the cause of apparent attachment issues. Eg. As seen on this thread, it's common to assume that psychopathy is directly caused by parenting, when it's likely to be a neurological difference at the root of the issue (nature) which can be modified to a certain extent by parenting (nurture).
Attachment theory is also commonly used as a scapegoat diagnosis, blaming parents when those in the initial stages of an investigation don't have the experience to spot the neurological differences that are causing whatever behaviour leads to the investigations in the first place.

"Attachment theory is also commonly used as a scapegoat diagnosis, blaming parents when those in the initial stages of an investigation don't have the experience to spot the neurological differences that are causing whatever behaviour leads to the investigations in the first place."

This. And what seems like a lack of attachment to the investigator can actually be responsive and sensitive parents parenting the child they actually have in a way that the child can handle.

Exactly cory, we were considered cold and untactile at camhs, because we didn't cuddle ds2, even though we were clear that he hates unwanted contact, and if he wants a hug he'll come to us for one.

So in order to prove yourself a good parent you would have to do something that is probably very akin to inflicting physical pain on him. Sounds familiar...

Was also taught that there is another window at around 7 years old and once that window is passed the damage it often irreversible.

All the training I’ve had says that there are two main ‘big brain development’ phases; 0-3 and then early teens, during which in the latter repair of some of the damage done during the toddler years can be reversed or undone.

If it is nature and not 100% nurture then why are the overwhelming majority of violent crimes and these type of aggressive and non empathetic behaviours at extreme levels only displayed by men.

In the recent work on genders stereotypes in School (bbc programme earlier this year) it was shown how boys are encouraged to be less in touch with emotions and empathy from a very early age and how this impacts their anger, ability to self regulate and can be linked to male violence when older.

As I said already, I suspect true psychopathic traits are largely nature, but the way they are expressed is nurture. So women and men with psychopathic traits do act differently, but with the same lack of empathy and conscience.

It does appear to be normal for neurological things to present differently in men and women (thinking ASD and ADHD), so I wonder if this is the same for psychopaths as well.

I agree OP. When you work with children with ADHD, ASD, and a range of global delays, you realise what I find balance between nature and nurture it is.