To think some children are budding psychopaths?

[brasty]

I know being a psychopath does not mean that you will be violent or criminal. It does mean that you do not really feel empathy for anyone else and have a lack of a conscience.

I think rightly children are not labelled as psychopaths, but I do think children who are showing these traits should get proper treatment and their parents should get proper advice and support.

Children showing psychopathic traits are those pre puberty children who are bullies, setting fires, lying routinely, showing no empathy for others, deliberately cruel to animals, and for whom punishment has no impact. A child has to have a number of these issues, many children bully for example, but still show empathy towards people they love.

But at the moment, parents with children showing these traits, receive little help, and are often blamed for causing their child's behavior. There seems to be resistance to seeing this in young children.

Can psychopaths be almost child-like in their behaviour do you think? Can they appear to be adults who have never grown up in a sense? I knew someone who one of my close relatives considered to be one but I won't say too much in case it is outing. He was very manipulative and was someone who didn't ever really grow up and take responsibility for being an adult in any sense of the word really. Lived exactly how he wanted and always got cross if he didn't get his own way etc, and could be quite verbally abusive.

In some ways, it was v interesting to know them as I didn't ever feel I really knew them properly over the past 20 years, although I was very close to them once.

Absolutely OP, and they usually have parents who say they're 'spirited' with a tinkly little laugh.

Yes I know one, very middle class loving family.
I have seen him actively go out of his way to cause harm since three. One thought it was just toddler years but it hasn't stopped, the absolutely vicious nasty streak to want to harm. He is the problem child of the class, constant issues and schools is useless. But the parents have head in sand and do nothing. Child has hurt mine pretty much in front of parent and they laughed it off. I agree for this type of child needs referral yes. School is way out of depth. Head is bizarre and not in touch with reality.

The child I am thinking of is absolutely not in any way shape or form from The deprived background, very middle class comfortably off dp, very stable loving family and wider family.

Born free you say the parents have their heads in the sand and do nothing and that they laugh off his behavior. You then say the child is from a stable and loving family....really!!!! I call that neglect.

I'm not sure where the line lies between simply being an unpleasant person and a psychological condition?

Pathologising all nastiness is problematic. I wonder what it says about our culture that we seek to label every and any bad behaviour/ attitudes as a mental health illness. Sometimes, someone can be selfish and unpleasant with being ill.

I teach adults and have had a few who diagnosed themselves as psychopaths. I don't think all hope is lost for these people, they are not either ruthless bosses or in prison. Self-awareness is necessary though and I suspect it came from therapy of some sort.

I’m currently studying Pyschology, Sociology and Criminology; and most psychopaths are not likely to end up in prison, they are likely to have high flying careers and make a lot of money.
Where as sociopaths are more likely to commit violence.

Also need to note that most psychopaths don’t realise they are psychopaths.

Psychopaths have smaller amygdala volume, an area responsible for emotional (particularly fear) processing.

RacingRacoons I’d say there’s a lot wrong with what you’re being taught. I don’t think there’s a difference between the two, and if there is, psychopathy is the “criminal” one. The PCL-R is the assessment for “diagnosing” psychopathy and it looks for the presence of criminogenic factors which are unlikely to be find in high flying executives.

bell perhaps yes. It's not done him any favours and his issues and the people that know about them are around the whole school.
But the point is, he isn't from the deprived estate or with neglectful parents who are addicts, or don't care about him in anyway. He is loved and home life stable. He wants to cause trouble and inflict pain.

Do you live with this little boy

How do you know he isn't being harmed in any way you can't possibly know that it just how the family appear on the surface to you

He sounds as though he is hurting himself now why is that becuase life is so wonderful for him of course it's not

And yes adults with antisocial personality disorder do often come across child like in their behaviour not taking responsibility, acting out (tantrums) unable to understand how others are feeling, being impulsive and constant telling lies, attention seeking

Most definitely.

@brasty luckily my DC never showed any psychopathic traits. But he was a very very anxious and on edge little boy with absolutely no confidence. Every single time I'd have sent him off with that monster he must have felt so so betrayed.

He's so much happier now. A normal, silly and care free little boy who doesn't seem anxious at all

I absolutely hate myself for not seeing it all sooner

It’s really offensive (and naive) to suggest that psychopaths are all a result of abuse. It really is. Both to abuse victims and to parents who try their hardest, and often very successfully raise other children, but just cannot reason with callous and unemotional children. Unless you’ve been through it you can never understand. I firmly believe that callous & unemotional traits (the precursor to psychopathy) are genetic. Perhaps this was the result of abuse to a parent/grandparent (FASD for example) that causes some sort of genetic issue, which is then passed on to the child.

Presumably those who are saying that psychopathy is always the result of abuse wouldn't say the same about, say, autism?

I think children who are born with this, are a very small number. Many who appear to have this, have actually been badly abused.

In terms of women and men, when you look at parents online who have children with these issues, and who are looking for help, it seems to be pretty equal between girls and boys. Children who have been badly abused and show these signs, are almost exclusively male.

I do think it is a brain difference, just like autism is. But that a different kind of parenting is needed from the norm. Some parents may do that by accident almost. Others need help, that they are largely not getting. I know because the phrase psychopath is so emotionally laden, that children with psychopathic traits tend to be diagnosed as having ODD or Conduct Disorder (I am not saying all children who are diagnosed with ODD or conduct disorder have psychopathic traits, just that children with psychopathic traits tend to be given this diagnosis).
I think we are currently letting children and their parents down.

WeeMadArthur

I saw the same programme. The scientist didn't know he was a psychopath until he saw his scan but people he worked with had already noticed.

My DD1 (8) sometimes seems to lack empathy. She’s got Attachment Disorder due to being adopted; it’s very common among adopted children. She hurts DD2 regularly and has been violent towards me as well. (She hit me hard with a pen yesterday.)

On one occasion she pushed DD2 against a wall, resulting in DD2 getting a bruise. She seemed to have no understanding about her having hurt her little sister, but then she got very upset when she hurt herself in her agitated state. She didn’t seem to have any understanding about her actions having caused DD2 to hurt herself.

Other times she does show empathy. So it’s not clear-cut. But she doesn’t see a link between her actions and her sister (or mummy) getting hurt.

I've just had a look at the checklist for child behaviour/psychopathy and the list is actually very woolly and may give enough knowledge for a layperson to make some very serious and incorrect judgements about a child.

We live in a society where, unless a child shows very obvious signs of a diagnosable disorder, there is an agenda to not diagnose, to deny support.
Conduct disorder can be linked to other conditions, and is not necessarily a result of poor parenting, abuse or neglect. My son's is a direct result of anxiety (if only his anxiety behaviour was crying or hiding, he might have been helped ). A well meaning neighbour has mentioned to me that it's only a matter of time before he's in prison , and because his ASD/PDA doesn't present stereotypically, we're fighting against a tide of people who withhold support (schools and CAMHS) and prefer to blame us, when we are doing everything we can to help.

I agree with the op that many children with issues fly beneath the radar because it's easier to blame parents.

Children are being let down - not just callous & unemotional ones. All children. Children’s services, SEND support, the NHS & everything else that should support children has been cut to the bone. Basically, there’s ‘not enough’ money to help children anymore. It’s utterly disgusting.

It’s also an important point that most ‘psychopaths’ are also compulsive liars, who are completely unable to accept responsibility for their own actions. I wouldn’t put it past any of them to lie about abuse so that it’s no longer their fault.

Interesting you mention ODD OP, this is a very common misdiagnosis for PDA (pathological demand avoidance), which is a presentation of autism. It requires a different approach in order to manage behaviour, but this is an approach which many professionals will not attempt, and the rigid insistence of discipline and boundaries just pushes these children further away from being able to cope in schools.

I did say that although children with psychopathic traits are often diagnosed with conduct disorder; many children with conduct disorder do not have psychopathic traits. There are many reasons for conduct disorder.

Yes children who have been adopted often show a lack of empathy, that sounds a difficult situation. But that is not the same as true psychopathic traits. Adopted children have had issues with making a secure attachment where they feel empathy because of how they have been treated. True psychopathic traits means children can not make a secure attachment where they feel empathy.