aibu to love this blog post about why formula feeding is brilliant?!

[girlwithasecretsmile]

I think it's great to have a post talking about good things about formula for once but part of me feels bad for laughing so much.

passmethebottleblog.wordpress.com/

There is something about our culture which makes a normal physiological function, one that most women have been able to sustain since we crawled out of the swamps, massively problematic for UK mums. Surely that's not right? Not a situation we should just accept as being OK?

And a lot of women on this thread are sharing their views and experiences on some of those factors: generational, cultural, but also very individual in terms of practical health care provision.

80% start and most of those who stop fairly quickly would have liked to feed longer. That's a pretty strong pointer to one of the big culprits and it's not 'women need to have the 'breast is best!' message shouted just a little louder'.

On the individual level I completely agree with you Squirrels. Simple manners mean I would never in a million years judge a FF mum for her feeding choice, or criticise her individually, to her face or to others.

But the fact that the majority formula feed, and that is our societal norm, is the main reason it is so hard for new mums (the overwhelming majority of whom do want to breastfeed, and he majority of those could if appropriately supported) can't access decent support to help them over the tricky first few weeks and get to the point where it isn't painful or difficult, but a really positive and healthful experience for the dyad.

For example, the reason HVs and GPs are by and large so shit at helping novice bfers identify and iron out their 'teething' problems is because the vast majority of the mums and babies they take care of don't bf, or give up very early, that's what they expect to happen, and they aren't going to devote their very limited time for study and training becoming experts on what is fast becoming a very niche parenting practice. So they know shit all about it, or their information is decades out of date, or they just don't see the point in hand-holding these statistical outliers through a process they see as pointless because "everyone" formula feeds in the end.

That is what is being scrutinized and criticised: not individual mums who for whatever personal reason don't want to bf, but the structural factors that mean why should be the logical default is instead something odd and difficult. And to find out why it is that way and improve it, it is important to know why women choose in droves not to do something with huge long term and short term benefits to themselves and their babies (circumstances permitting).

Re the icky thing, that was a paraphrase of your 'not comfortable with'. Unless you meant physically uncomfortable, in which case again it's a question of appropriate support in most cases.

Basically it seems you're asking "why should women have to bother?", and while I agree they shouldn't have to, there are a lot of good reasons why they should choose to, just as there are a lot of parenting things they don't have to but probably should. I don't actually agree that no-one has a right to an opinion on others' parenting choices, e.g. discipline, sleep training etc. Of course there are gradations of quality and efrectiveness in parenting practises! Why has that become taboo to say?

Jassy, of course everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds. When I say people should do the best they can for their children, I do of course mean within the constraints of circumstances! Surely your 'good enough'ness is just another way of saying 'the best possible' taking into account people's physical, financial and emotional resources?

Workingbling if the blog went on to say that women who wear heels look like a sack of potatoes and have the sex appeal of a diseased beast of burden, then yes that would be rude and some people might take offence.

If my blog went on to say I feel like wearing heels makes me look like a sack of potatoes with the sec appeal of a diseased beast of burden... surely you couldn't take offence? Which is what this person is doing. If we could channel some of this rage in the bf/ff debates to other things, how much power we could generate.

To the poster who suggested my "style" is the same as the blogger, that really made me laugh out loud. I am not her however.

@lelapaletute pretty sure she said that she feels happy if they are refusing to suffer not that ALL breastfeeding women suffer but hey don’t let that get in the way of being a massive cow

‘If the stats are low because women are able to choose not to continue with something that hurts them, then I can’t feel anything other than relief at that.’

Also ‘easily disprovable shit’ - she says it’s her experience of breastfeeding, not everybody’s. The fact that so many people have agreed proves that for some women it’s a crap journey. Not sure how you can easily disprove her lived experience but whatever

The support in this country is fucking shit.

My first baby, 14 years ago, I didn't have a clue. Apparently I was feeding DS1 too much, and I should feed him every 4 hours at least. Yeah. Bad advice back then.

My nipples were agony. Sore. Cracked. Bleeding. I asked what to do and something was mumbled about cabbage leaves. I got mastitis 3 times. No one in my family could help, because no one else had breastfed. My abusive partner said I was being selfish by breastfeeding.

Still, I continued, because I am a stubborn cow. DS1 weaned himself by 1 year.

Fast forward to DD1. Still no help. No helpful words. No insight or words of wisdom. DD1 took to it well, but still I went through 8 weeks of pain. And the cluster feeding that made me feel I wasn't producing enough milk.

DS2 comes along and I have advice given to me by someone who has never breastfed. When having difficulty feeding on one side...'have you tried the rugby hold?' Said by all 3 different midwives. No I fucking haven't, have you??

In fact with DS2 I was told if he didn't have a proper feed within 24 hours they would give him formula.

Of course, google has been great, and I discovered lansinoh. I also read up on cluster feeding, and how I wasn't going insane, and I was producing enough milk. I massaged out any lumps and avoided mastitis. But wouldn't it be great if you could get that info from midwives and health visitors in the first place?

The thing that really gets me is not being able to complain about BF. It hurts. It's restrictive. It's bloody bloody hard work. At least it was for me. But if I say it hurts, I get the...'just switch to FF'....but I don't want to. 'Why not, what's wrong with it?' And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, I just don't want to. In the same way a FF does not want to BF.

Everyone knows that BF is the biological norm. We don't need campaigns on what is best. We need support for those that want to BF. A society more accepting of BF. Midwives and HV's who know what the fuck they're talking about. Not pressurising. Given a realistic expectation of just how hard it can be. No judgements.

I wonder if mixed feeding was given more encouragement, it would really help with wellbeing. Society today is tough. Demands on women are harder than ever. If we didn't have this one or the other approach, maybe women could BF longer knowing that they could hand over baby for a FF to give them a break.

Do we have the figures on mixed feeding? I wonder. It says 99% of mothers are not EBF at 6 months. But what of mixed feeding?

Anyway. This post is far too long as it is!

Still BF my 19 month old, and it's top secret as 'extended' breastfeeding is much frowned upon. Makes me feel

Nice bomb dropped by the OP, particularly loved the wide-eyed, 'wow, I wasn't expecting so many replies! 🙄 x a million.

S/hehas barely even engaged with the thread, while everyone else is running rabid, as usual.

Haven't read all comments. Fully prepared for this to go down really badly, but here goes...

Formula is an amazing invention, yes. Without it babies who are not breastfed would be at best deficient in essential vitamins or at worst dead.

I think for those who medically can't produce milk it's great. But I genuinely can't understand why people choose feeding formula over breastfeeding. Why some people don't even consider breastfeeding an option. That it's not natural

@minifingerz - why the hell are you getting so emotional about whether a mother feeds from a plastic nipple or a real one? ~It says everything about you and your own subconcious unfulfilled needs than it does about any other person on here. Try being a mother whose birthing of a new and willing to breastfeed newborn went catastrophically wrong... what leave the babs starve. I wasn't breastfed, I consider myself, well evolved and quite intelligent (no thanks to my mam, in your opinion) - you are just one of those asses who have nothing else worthwhile to do, but criticise other women on whether their kiddies had a nipple or a plastic nipple. Grow up.

This woman's third post is actually now bordering on ludicrous.

I am also not a journalist or ‘a plant.’ I wanted this blog to be a place where women who formula feed can come and have a laugh and feel better about their choice. I don’t care that formula feeding is ‘the majority’ now – IN MY OWN FUCKING EXPERIENCE, IN MY OPINION, NOT CLAIMING AS FACT SO FUCK OFF, ETC, I found that I was very unsupported and judged when I started using formula. I would have loved this blog, and needed to read that there was light at the end of the tunnel and that I would eventually get over the guilt and feeling of failure.

Really love? You started a blog where your readers cannot leave comments, cannot interact with you or each other, as a "safe space" for formula mothers, but you also didn't intend it to get shared on MN or spread widely around? You must think we're really dim. You obviously posted it here yourself.

I don't think you're misinformed or dumb - I think you're a plant. There's no point getting caught up in the drama of FF vs BF over an obviously fake blog designed to stir up controversy and do almost nothing else.

You know there are countries where bf rates are pushing 95%?

What I wish is that people who don't want to bf for whatever reason could just say that. Because the idea that lots of women and babies can't bf is doing a disservice to women that want to. If our cultural belief is that bf is difficult and unlikely to succeed then that becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

Surely your 'good enough'ness is just another way of saying 'the best possible' taking into account people's physical, financial and emotional resources?

But in debates like this over feeding that doesn't hold true - some people will say 'breast is best, so women should breastfeed, no matter what the cost to the mother'. So I don't think the two are synonymous because in so many areas our culture expects mothers in particular to put their needs behind everyone else's, which I don't think is good for anyone in the long run.

something with huge long term and short term benefits to themselves and their babies (circumstances permitting).

I think it would be really useful if, when people made statements like 'huge benefits' that quantified some of them, because it does come across as hyperbolic.

'Huge' is of course subjective, and we will all put different weight and value on different benefits.

"some people will say 'breast is best, so women should breastfeed, no matter what the cost to the mother'"
Do they really? I honestly don't think I have ever heard anyone say that.

Having skimmed through this I just feel despair at the lack of unity, empathy and understanding we as mothers show to each other in this world.

Everyone has their own story, reasons, opinions and feelings. Why can't we just accept that we are all raising children of our own. Nobody but me knows what I age gone through mentally as a mother. Nobody knows my daughter better than me. So I don't understand why anyone would assume they can judge my decisions.

My DD is 3 now so I'm not in the midst of this anymore. But my journey to this point was full of struggle and at no point did anyone suggest my mental health was a priority. I had to figure that outfit myself.

Feeding your baby can be stressful and linked to lots of emotion. Good and bad.

I wish we could all learn to stop judging others. "Everyone is fighting a battle you know nothing about"

'breast is best, so women should breastfeed, no matter what the cost to the mother'"

It's the discourse, isn't it? I paraphrased. 'This is so good for your baby, you should just push through the pain/blood/baby sicking up your blood/nipples hanging off, it's sooo beneficial for your baby and you want what's best for your baby, don't you?'

Which I definitely had. And if that's not putting the mother's needs and wellbeing not just second, but not even in the picture, I don't know what it is. And it's not the only area where women are expected to not just put their needs second, but pretend those needs don't exist.

And it's a fucking dreadful public health approach.

Horrible blog.

Massive chip on each shoulder.

There isn't a shred of evidence (as in a proper, in vivo RCT) that shows any benefit of bf over ff.

Can you imagine a drug, that hasn't been subjected to any form of RCT not only being prescribed, but being hailed as the One True Path and anything else is akin to poison?

There is, however lots and lots of good science that shows the detrimental effect of sleep deprivation on the developing infant brain, growth, stress levels etc that we choose to ignore, even though bf babies, on a population level sleep far less than ff ones.

We will look back on this hysterical propaganda and cringe at our former selves.

I steer away from such negative stuff.

It does no one any favours except to encourage hostility between women.

bertrand I have heard plenty of people say that

What, that women should bf whatever the cost to them? What an incredibly stupid thing to say!

bertrand *You know there are countries where bf rates are pushing 95%?

What I wish is that people who don't want to bf for whatever reason could just say that. Because the idea that lots of women and babies can't bf is doing a disservice to women that want to. If our cultural belief is that bf is difficult and unlikely to succeed then that becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.*

I agree. I have visited countries where breastfeeding rates are so high they don't need much breastfeeding support.

The problem is cultural here in the UK though, which doesn't mean the problems are any less real.
Some women do end up being unable to breastfeed. But it's rarely to do with their bodies. It's to do with what surrounds their bodies.

I think this whole debate is focussing on the wrong points....

I agree up thread re the problems are cultural and expectation deficit.

On having a prem baby, the expectation was that I ff, from the nicu, and they were very surprised that I inquired about expressing. In fact I was told that I was unlikely to be able to express etc. Sad when you consider the benefits. Which they knew, and once I was expressing they were more than forthcoming with the benefits.

A lot of this judging just seems to be breastfeeding mothers who want to feel superior.

This is the problem. People assume that breastfeeding mother judge ff mother because they want to feel superior. If a bf mother is proud of bf she is accused of acting superior. If she points out some well researched facts about bf she is accused of acting superior. If she proudly feeds in public she is accused of acting superior. If she looks at a baby who is being ff she is accused of judging. If she passes comment about bf in a general baby feeding discussion she is accused of judging or acting superior.
Honestly people like this are up there with the arses who believe that bf is disgusting. Let's lock all the bf mother's in their homes so they can't upset everyone else. Let them never feel happy or proud of bf their children. In fact, they should sit there and hate every moment of their bf journey.

The simple fact is, is when people talk about bf the main thing that seems to come up is about the mother's discomfort and the mother's issues. We only talk about how much it hurt or how hard it was to do which actively puts people off trying. Yes it was difficult and a bit weird, but I loved feeding my son. I found it really enjoyable, convenient, satisfying and just overall, amazing. But I'll get targeted for saying that by people saying "oh well it was for you but for everyone else it was horrible, so sit down and shut up".