aibu to love this blog post about why formula feeding is brilliant?!

[girlwithasecretsmile]

I think it's great to have a post talking about good things about formula for once but part of me feels bad for laughing so much.

passmethebottleblog.wordpress.com/

"It is a brilliant resource for those who cannot breastfeed or choose not to breastfeed. clearly"

Yes - it's clearly GREAT to have access to a food which will sustain life if you choose not to give your baby the best and safest food, which is human milk.

'Brilliant'? It was designed as a lifesaving resource for babies whose mothers had died or were too ill or unable to breastfeed . But decades of forceful and dishonest marketing, misinformation about breastfeeding and poor clinical practice has resulted in it becoming the normal way to feed babies in the UK.

Are we supposed to celebrate that?

It's hardly been a beneficial change for babies has it?

In fact I'd say that with the exception of the very tiny number of babies who really can't be breastfed or access donor milk, it's been an entirely negative change for babies.

But I'm in a minority in thinking that the wellbeing of babies should be factored in as an important part of the debate. As evidenced by this thread - most people only want to discuss this issue in relation to adult needs. The assumption is that it doesn't really matter for babies.

And saying you believe it does has become socially unacceptable.

it is not dangerous when prepared properly.Not really true

No, dr did say dangerous and I had already said when prepared properly. I am fully aware it can be dangerous when not prepared properly, same with a lot of foods.

honestly, even if prepared by the book, to the letter, formula is less "safe" for human babies than human milk. It really doesn't take much reading on the subject to understand that basic fact.

It's hardly beneficial for babies?

No it just helps babies put on weight when they're not getting enough milk, it helps them not starve to death when their mothers physically cannot feed them.

The well being of babies is being factored in but it isn't you doing it.

A breast fed baby with an absolutely fucking miserable mother, who is in pain most of the time is no better off than a formula fed baby with a happy mother.

If you think breast is best in every circumstance you're seriously deluded.

If it's not possible for a mother to feed her baby it's a valuable resource (in the absence of donor milk) without doubt
But as a "choice?" no. It's not comparable.

So shouldn't we have a choice?

Should we stop c sections as well because they're not natural?

I can't agree with anyone who thinks the choice should be taken away.

No-ones saying formula (in developed countries, prepared safely) is dangerous or inadequate (for full term healthy babies). It's just not as good. People know this, it's been proven a hundred different ways. Ml for ml, breastmilk is much better for baby. Breastfeeding, however, can be either very beneficial to or very harmful for the mum, and a struggling sick mum is no good for a baby. However, the vast majority of breastfeeding struggles can be alleviated by good support (note I say GOOD support).

Frankly if it's not a health issue (physical or mental) that causes a woman to choose not to breastfeed, then it's a lifestyle choice and a parenting choice and as with everything from diet to discipline it's going to get judged. As does bf. When your choices are judged, you can either justify yourself or say "sod 'em" and do what you feel is right for you. Expecting people not to make judgements is unrealistic imo, although it is perfectly reasonable to expect them not to be rude.

Don't put words into my mouth.
goodnight

I'm not putting words into your mouth. You've made it very clear you think there should be no choice.

Do you know what really gets me in these discussions?

We solely focus on the benefits to babies.

We expect women to be martyrs, struggle through with fuck all support and lots of disapprobation no matter what they do. When their mental health is dismissed because 'breast is better'. When formula is held up as the bogeyman as some on this thread rather than being honest enough to point the finger at other driving culprits in the fact that our breastfeeding rates plummet so quickly - that is, untrained HCPs and total lack of accessible, effective support. 5-6 week waits to have tongue ties fixed, HCPs who miss them, disastrous advice from MWs and HVs who've read a book or 'done the training' but can't help with complex or multiple problems, the list goes on and on.

Meanwhile, the fuck isn't the narrative more balanced around benefits to women, which seem to me an awful lot more clear cut? Why don't we talk about mental health in relation to breastfeeding problems? Why aren't we making more of the mother so that women are making an informed, supported decision based on something that's not pure playing to maternal guilt?

Again, speaking as someone who breastfed two babies to 18 months despite some major issues the first time and minor issues the second time. I get very, very angry at the narrative around feeding and lack of support for women who want to breastfeed.

Strongly agree Jassy - and what most bf advocates are in fact advocating FOR is better support for mums. No-one I have met in what could be loosely described as 'lavtivist' circles expects or want mums to just put up and shut up. The rage at how badly women are misinformed and left unsupported and sabotaged is palpable. It is not all about the baby.

But frankly, I'm also left wondering how the baby's best interests could ever be less than central to the debate tbh. After all isn't it a given if you choose to have a baby you're committed to doing what's best for them to the best of your ability?

@JassyRadlett your last post is spot on.

I've breastfed two babies for about the same time, hopefully will be doing so with a third in five weeks or so, and totally agree with your assessment of the wider capacity and capability issues. It's a terrible scenario really, as you say the reality doesn't underpin the evidence based practice or the glossy leaflets we are given or what we read in books.

I've scanned this thread just now and see it has fallen into the awful depressing pit I knew it would.

But frankly, I'm also left wondering how the baby's best interests could ever be less than central to the debate tbh. After all isn't it a given if you choose to have a baby you're committed to doing what's best for them to the best of your ability?

But what's best for them might well be formula if breastfeeding isn't for you, or isn't working, or makes you feel uncomfortable, or whatever. I strongly believe a happy comfortable and confident parent is better than one who is just doing something they hate because that's what's best.

You could say that about everything and I don't think many of us could say we've done everything the "best" way.

And by the way, as for the evidence being inclusive and the benefits of breastfeeding being trivial, this is the UNICEF statement on breastfeeding in the uk:

"Breastfeeding saves lives and protects the health of mothers and babies both in the short and long term. The evidence is well-established, for both the benefits to mother and baby of breastfeeding, and the significant risks of not breastfeeding. Breastfeeding has some of the most wide-reaching and long-lasting effects on a baby’s health and development.
Breastfeeding contributes to significant savings to the NHS, with initial investments paying off within just a few years.
Prevalence of breastfeeding at 6–8 weeks is a key indicator of child health and wellbeing. The UK has one of the lowest breastfeeding rates in the world, and the government aims to increase breastfeeding rates so that they are as high as possible."

So carry on saying 'it's not well established' and slagging off anyone who quotes reputable sources as 'stat twisting', but there is a growing body of individuals, luckily more and more of them in the medical community, who don't agree.

As far as the blog goes - there isn't one thing it says which is original or interesting or anything other than a dull repetition of the usual cliches and gripes.

The best solution to our current feeding shit storm is for our culture to stop pretending how babies are fed doesn't matter and give it the attention it deserves. It does matter - to women and to babies.

Usual cliches and gripes?

Those cliches you speak of are people's experiences. Those gripes are things women struggle with.

You don't seem to give a shit that people find breastfeeding bloody hard. Why shouldn't they have a whinge about it?

Births hard too should we not whinge about that either?

Also lol just read the bloggers latest offering. Blogger dear, (OP?), you DID suggest it was a good thing bf rates were so low in this country as it meant more women choosing not to 'suffer'. I don't see what else you could have been implying other than that women who breastfeed will necessarily or in the majority 'suffer'.

Plus sorry, you don't get away with chatting a bunch of easily disprovable shit by then saying it's just "your opinion". Well you do, of course, that's free speech in the age of the internet. But it's lazy, intellectually cowardly, Michael Gove level fact allergic bullshit to do so. IN MY OPINION

"I strongly believe a happy comfortable and confident parent is better than one who is just doing something they hate because that's what's best."

Of course a happy, well mum is essential for a baby.

So why the fuck are so many UK mums unable to breastfeed and be happy doing it?

It's cultural, not a given. Most women around the world breastfeed and don't suffer emotionally and physically to the extent that UK mums do.

Instead of saying 'if you can't be happy breastfeeding just don't breastfeed' we should be asking what are the barriers in UK culture towards women nurturing their babies in the biologically normal way?

There is something about our culture which makes a normal physiological function, one that most women have been able to sustain since we crawled out of the swamps, massively problematic for UK mums. Surely that's not right? Not a situation we should just accept as being OK?

HelloSquirrels I did say if bf is making mum struggle or become unwell, that's not good for baby either. But most bf struggles are susceptible to solutions, and most women want to bf. The options do not stop at (a) breastfeeding a dream from word go and (b) breastfeeding a struggle, mum and baby would be better on formula. Seeking help, and others advocating that such help should be high quality and readily available, is another good option.

As for women who just don't want to do it for some other reason, those reasons and choices like every choice everyone makes are open to question. Choices shouldn't be removed, but neither should advocacy of best practice be quashed so those choices can be made free from information that might cause women to think again about their choice. We don't make choices in an hermetically sealed vacuum which must be protected from any scrutiny. No other choices are afforded this protection. Why would infant feeding choice?

So why the fuck are so many UK mums unable to breastfeed and be happy doing it

1. It is difficult
2. It fucking hurts
3. There is a distinct lack of support
4. Some babies just do not get the fucking hang of it
5. Some people do not want their baby physically attached to them for hours at a time
6. Some people have to go back to work immediately and so it is not practical
7. Some people really really REALLY try and it just does not work out
8. Some babies (like mine) are jaundiced and sleepy for AGES after birth and are not at all interested in trying to feed. No matter how much I tried he was not interested and would have started to loose even more weight if I had persevered.
9. Some people are not comfortable with it or don't like the sensation (And you know what that's ok!)

I could honestly go on.

People can't be happy breastfeeding just because you think they should be. It's one of the most difficult things to get the hang of, And when you do and it works it's great. The reality is there's not enough support to make it work for every woman and every baby.

And even if there was brilliant support available for every mum, some mum's still wouldn't want to do it and I personally think that's absolutely fine. Formula is designed to be a breast milk substitute, it's designed to feed babies. Why shouldn't we have the choice to use it?

You might think it's inferior and shite and evil or whatever - fine don't feed your baby it.

Why shouldn't anyone else be able to make their own decision without being accused of not doing their best?

BasicallySquirrels you seem to be asking for people to show consideration and compassion for mothers who want to breastfeed but can't for the good of themselves and their babies, which I don't think anyone wouldn't be on board with. But you then want to elide those women with the ones who just think bf is icky, or an inconvenience, and have the same shield of compassion drawn over those choices and viewpoints so they can't be questioned or challenged. That's where the argument falls down in my view, as we all make choices in all areas of our lives which will be scrutinized and need to be prepared to either justify them or simply stand by them devil be damned and not let other people's opinions matter.

Why shouldn't we be compassionate?

What's so wrong with being compassionate? Should we all have a big bitch fest about mothers who formula feed because they don't want to? (And I never said anything about it being "icky")
What will we achieve from doing that? Will those mothers decide to breastfeed their next child? Probably not.

A lot of this judging just seems to be breastfeeding mothers who want to feel superior. How someone else feeds their baby is not your concern. It is not neglect or abuse to use formula. We should be able to choose whether to use it or breast feed freely.

It's those who judge who have a problem not the mothers who choose formula.

Why should you be able to question or challenge how someone feeds their child? It doesn't impact you. Same with sleeping and weaning and everything else.

It should be a choice. Breast might be best but formula is a bloody good substitute and the choice to use it for whatever reason should be there and there shouldn't be any judgement.

But frankly, I'm also left wondering how the baby's best interests could ever be less than central to the debate tbh.

Of course it's central, but it shouldn't be the only thing in the centre of the discussion - particularly when so many people (including UNICEF, the NHS and others) make big statements but aren't always forthcoming with the evidence base or quantifying the benefits. It's a really interesting field, particularly when you get into methodological analyses and the real difficulties of identifying and controlling for confounding factors. Clear impacts on eg prevalence of illness (diahorrea and ear infection) in infants, but the long-term development stuff is a bit messy.

But mothers matter too.

After all isn't it a given if you choose to have a baby you're committed to doing what's best for them to the best of your ability?

I disagree a bit, I think. Throughout a child's life, some of what we do for our children will be 'good enough' but maybe not 'absolute best'. That's for a range of factors. Money is a big one. When you have more than one child, you have to balance their needs and the optimal outcomes for each, and that involves compromise and 'good enough'.

And I'd go further and say that sometimes - often - 'good enough' is just fine if that also enables a 'good enough' for the parent/s. Which is probably a longer-term benefit for all.