To wonder who's life would be prioritised, mother or baby?

[splendidisolation]

Just one of those random train of thought questions that popped up in my head.

Imagine this theoretical scenario, a mother is giving birth and the doctor's have to decide whether to save her life or the newborn on its way out.
Ethically, which would they be forced to choose and why?

Imagine the mother's partner or a family member is present. Obviously horrific, but would they be asked to decide? Who makes that decision?

Mother, without a doubt.

Just for the record, I've spent the last page of this thread trying to work out how penggwn would be pronounced with a Central American Spanish accent. Sorry to derail a serious subject.

When I was in labour with severe HELLP Syndrome they told me I was the priority. This really upset me and in my drugged up state begged them if it came to it to save the baby over me and was told that wouldn't happen.

Interestingly enough, children take priority at all other times

Do they? And you're right, babies aren't considered people with rights until they're born.

This is pretty interesting

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/twins-born-brain-dead-woman-10773398.amp

No at other times e.g. triage in a disaster, children do not take priority.

I live in Ireland. Here, in the constitution, a foetus has equal rights to the mother. Yes, you read that correctly

Is that the reason for the 2014 case, where a young mum was kept on life support for weeks after brain death in an attempt to save the baby?

I understand that it wasn't possible in the end as the mother's decomposition was endangering her unborn child to the point where it wouldn't survive, but I'm genuinely struggling with the concept of a judicial process which would even consider such a horror

Mother, obviously, as she is already a human being. And conscious. With responsibilities.

So tired of this argument being Irish

"Very, very interesting question."
A very good thread, few and far between nowadays. It's the sort of thread, posters and posts that got me hooked to MN years ago.

Mother

There are still Protestant maternity hospitals in Dublin ... it is widely understood that medical priorities within them would be different to a catholic maternity hospital

But how, in the 21st century, has it come to this?

In my ignorance I thought the "8th amendment" which appears to compromise a woman's interest was some ancient statute, but now I learn that i was voted into the constitution via a referendum in nineteen eighty three

WHY???!!!!

Welcome to Ireland puzzled

Which likes to laud itself as progressive and modern, except when it comes to women's reproductive rights, where it sits happily in the dark ages.

I think largely looking after the mother inherently looks after the baby.

I can't think of any actions that are fatal to the mother but would save the baby.

Ah, The Thorn Birds .....

Fuck off with the Ireland bashing, thanks

Look to the UK, and in particular Northern Ireland and your treatment of those not "mainland" UK. Hardly been that progressive have you?

People need to be reminded that culturally, Ireland is a very young country, just over 100 years old. It turned to the church when it parted from the UK during that period of uncertainty where we had our freedoms but didnt know what to do with them.

The church had too long a hold on the country, but times are changing, maybe you dont see it LaurieMarlow. having fucked off for 10 years, but those of us marching, fighting and campaigning do.

Hmm. My father was a doctor and asked him about this. He said it's a vanishingly rare situation. In reality it almost never comes down to a simple x versus y but is far more complex with multiple decisions along the way.

Doctors try to save lives. End of. The Catholic Church also values life and would strive to save life and not say an unborn baby's life wasn't worth saving. But practically to not save mother? No.

Saying an unborn baby is valuable is not controversial for me. I don't believe that your life chances should depend on how much someone loves you. I think that this thread raises a false dichotomy in some ways.

"The church had too long a hold on the country, but times are changing"

Good. Glad to hear it. When is this change going to happen?

That sense of defensiveness that comes across strongly in your post snipsnip is one of the things I find must troubling about the country.

Yes times are changing, but not nearly fast enough. We are an absolute disgrace when it comes to women's reproductive rights. Face up to that.

And Northern Ireland (where I was born) is absolutely in the same boat. And you can't blame the uk for that. The laws on abortion are entirely what the main parties in NI want them to be.

Mother.

I wasn't ever sure what general protocol was so specifically put in my birth notes for my second and third and on my emergency health app on my phone that I am to be prioritised in all instances if that decision has to be made. Having said that I already had kids at that point though

They'd try to save both, if mum had capacity to make the decision they'd ask her, if neither was possible they'd be saving mum. Baby isn't legally alive until they've taken their first breath.

Well BertrandRussell it already has started-

The most recent census showed people of no religion was up by what, 70-odd%

The increase in demand for educate together and non faith school places far outstrips demand. Bar a lot of places in Dublin, having a child christened is not a requirement or a hindrance to a school place.

The number of christenings in itself have decreased.

The people of Ireland were very clear on their views about the nuns and the new maternity hospital.

Already a very strong home to vote campaign going in relation to the 8th referendum.

Those are just some of the things, off the top of my head but Im not a statistician so obviously dont have facts and figures to hand.

All I am saying is things ARE changing, even a slow change is still a change. If you cant see the change, get out there with the rest of us and fight for it.

The church had too long a hold on the country, but times are changing

I'm genuinely trying to learn here, and from some of the things I'm reading the change you mention seems no bad thing

I also take the point about a "young nation", but still can't understand how something which compromises womens' reproductive rights was brought in so recently in a modern western nation ... not somehow imposed, but actually voted for in a referendum with a presumably secret ballot

Can someone please help me to understand why??

Well LaurieMarlow that sense of superiority and self smugness that drips from your post tells me all I need to know.

Too quick to put down the country you live in, not quick enough to fight for change.

Just out of curiosity, if "The laws on abortion are entirely what the main parties in NI want them to be" then why the fuck do ye keep voting in these parties?

Where are protestant hospitals?

I'm confused.

The law is the law though. You can't diall a protestant hospital and ask for an abortion. Their hands would be just as tied by the law.

Leo had better phrase the wording of this referendum to my satisfaction. Or I'm coming after him.

"I also take the point about a "young nation", but still can't understand how something which compromises womens' reproductive rights was brought in so recently in a modern western nation ... not somehow imposed, but actually voted for in a referendum with a presumably secret ballot"

I actually read an article today that stated no one knows who actually put that in the constitution, when someone went to look at the statute, they found the file empty, Ill have to dig that out.