Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

When did any view expressed make you 'genuine' and not bigoted

259 replies

Brokenme · 07/09/2017 21:13

I'm really struggling to get my head around people saying Jacob Rees-Moggs views are ok because he is being 'genuine' and expressing himself. Where do we draw the line? Is it ok for politicians to be racist as long as they are 'genuinely' expressing their views. AIBU to be completely appalled by this stand point?

OP posts:
VestalVirgin · 07/09/2017 21:59

His opinion isn't just an opinion, he wants to force it on women. Not being a woman himself, he has zero right to tell women what to do with our bodies.

So, no, being "genuine" doesn't make him any better. It is not really an achievement, either. It is not like there's many people who lie about their misogyny.

Interesting that someone here mentioned "transphobia". Where actually, the evil, evil "transphobes" are just being genuine and honest about the fact that if they look at a man in a wig and high heels, they still see a man, not a woman. Whereas, let's not fool ourselves, genderists, too, are perfectly able to see that such a person is still male, (you know because they'll scream "transphobia" if someone "misgenders" that person, showing they are perfectly aware of the real sex) but choose to deny this out of a desire to be good trans allies.

Original poster
Brokenme · 07/09/2017 21:59

cao that's my fear

OP posts:
MissHavishamsleftdaffodil · 07/09/2017 21:59

I don't accept those views at all. I do appreciate that he says he holds them, a) because I know what I'm voting for and democracy is about making choices based on information - Cameron et al believed in getting into power by saying any damn thing that worked in the moment and then quietly getting on with their agenda without frightening the horses by sharing it - and b) because then those views can be debated, argued with and confronted.

We need to talk a lot about difficult stuff and win the argument if we're ever going to change it. Not just shout 'bigot' and walk away to disinfect ourselves.

SmileEachDay · 07/09/2017 21:59

I know he hasn't Maid.

It should be, though. It's just as damaging as racism.

Tinycitrus · 07/09/2017 22:01

If you don't like what he says don't vote for him. Fortunately we live in a democracy do even if he was PM he would need to get a parliamentary majority to pass and changes to existing legislation.

Many people hold views that are contradictory and offensive depending on your beliefs.. Mind blowing, eh?

MaidOfStars · 07/09/2017 22:01

Why aren't we saying his views are outdated / dangerous to individual in today's society
Are you on Facebook? Grin

Widespread condemnation has been the hot topic of conversation online, at work, at home. Even my Catholic mother had something terrible but not 'cunt' because she prefers 'eejit' to say about him.

Original poster
Brokenme · 07/09/2017 22:02

misshav I'm not doubting his right to say it. I'm despairing of the view point that it's good he's said it because it makes him genuine.

OP posts:
Original poster
Brokenme · 07/09/2017 22:03

tiny I think you've missed my point... he can say it. But you don't hear people calling the BNP 'genuine' because they've expressed their opinion. This is what concerns me.

OP posts:
Original poster
Brokenme · 07/09/2017 22:03

maid I'm not but twitter #moggmentum made me feel better 😄

OP posts:
StealthPolarBear · 07/09/2017 22:05

I worry though that this is mn. The views on here are not representative. A sizeable minority may overtly or secretly agree.

Original poster
Brokenme · 07/09/2017 22:06

stealth yes me too and does it make it more sociable acceptable to be homophobic/misogynistic because he is being praised for expressing his views

OP posts:
treaclesoda · 07/09/2017 22:06

I would say that his views on abortion are shared by at least half, probably more than half, of all the people I know.

LittleWitch · 07/09/2017 22:07

Agree with CaoMi . Our Trump indeed. The election of Trump has given bigots everywhere permission to come out. There are more of them than we know, and they live amongst us. We live in dangerous times.

VestalVirgin · 07/09/2017 22:07

He's going to be our Trump. I can feel it in my waters.

Yeah ... reminds me of another quote:

The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.

Women's rights are a thing of the past now, are they?

Tinycitrus · 07/09/2017 22:07

Well I suppose it's refreshing to hear a politician express a deeply held conviction at what will probably be some cost to his career.

He could have lied.

The BNP lie all the time.

FenceSitter01 · 07/09/2017 22:07

People are allowed to have alternative views. We aren't in thought controlled North Korea.

I know it's in the general MN posters psyche to slate any belief system but nonetheless many people do have a faith of one sort or another.

You don't get to pick and choose the bits of a faith that you like, whilst ignoring the other bits. This isn't America or West Africa where you can just run off and open up The Ministry of Miracles and adapt a 5,000 year old Abrahamic belief system to suit your own agenda.

Most people do think life is sacrosanct - but they apply if's and but's to suit themselves ..... abortions doesn't count, euthanasia doesn't count, suicide doesn't count, manslaughter doesn't count ..... but for anyone who does have a deep sense of religious preference you don't get to pick and choose the bits you like.

Agreeing with someone's right to choose does not have compromise your own beliefs. To put that in perspective, I have two (male) gay friends, both practicing Christians both personally are vehemently against gay marriage in church. They feel it goes against Christian teachings. It is not my place to question their beliefs. They do not discriminate against those who choose to get married in a church.

Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes the same penalty—death—for someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as for someone who commits murder. This clearly indicates that God considers a baby in the womb to be as human as a full-grown adult. For the Christian, abortion is not a matter of a woman’s right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6).

Tinycitrus · 07/09/2017 22:08

Are you quoting Lord of the Rings?

SmileEachDay · 07/09/2017 22:11

And that is why religion has no place in politics Fence

As I said, he has no place holding public office if those values are held by him.

Any woman who has had to have an abortion who heard that will have suffered, again.

He does not have the right to police women's bodies.

Loveluck7 · 07/09/2017 22:11

MissHavishamsleftdaffodil : Well said. You are spot on.

Original poster
Brokenme · 07/09/2017 22:11

fence funnily enough it was written by men...

OP posts:
MaidOfStars · 07/09/2017 22:12

Tiny

Most people do think life is sacrosanct
But not more sacrosanct than bodily autonomy. Abortion is one of few areas of debate where people try to argue differently.

twelly · 07/09/2017 22:13

The views expressed by jRM are his own views which are based on his faith and which he has clearly thought deeply about, there are many people who disagree with the views he holds and these to may be deeply held. Equally there are people who are less convinced of their views or who do not have an opinion. I do not think the allegation of biggot can applied any more to JRM than it can be to those vey pro abortion. Both have conviction and are committed to their options which they have arrived at due to their own be ifs and rational.

Original poster
Brokenme · 07/09/2017 22:13

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Genesis 3:16

OP posts:
cakeandcustard · 07/09/2017 22:14

He didn't break any laws on hate speech, he's entitled to express his views.

Instead of throwing our hands up in horror that anyone could think like that in this day and age we should be clearly stating the consequences of restricting women's access to abortion.

JRM just publicly stated the teachings of the Catholic Church. There are 4 million Catholics in this country and I have a sneaking suspicion that his views on the matter are not as rare as you might hope.