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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

When did any view expressed make you 'genuine' and not bigoted

259 replies

Brokenme · 07/09/2017 21:13

I'm really struggling to get my head around people saying Jacob Rees-Moggs views are ok because he is being 'genuine' and expressing himself. Where do we draw the line? Is it ok for politicians to be racist as long as they are 'genuinely' expressing their views. AIBU to be completely appalled by this stand point?

OP posts:
Nikephorus · 08/09/2017 07:24

I'd much rather hear someone expressing views that they sincerely believe in but which I completely oppose than have them lie publicly. You can't change the mind of someone if you don't know that they hold a different viewpoint. There's far too much insistence on political correctness these days.
Equally you can't expect someone to change their mind just because a lot of people shout at them and call them names, despite what some Mumsnetters seem to think.

tiggytape · 08/09/2017 07:28

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diamond49 · 08/09/2017 07:34

I think it all boils down to whether you regard an embryo/foetus as being a human being. If he genuinely feels they gave equal rights to a premmie, then you can see where he is coming from even if you do not agree

FenceSitter01 · 08/09/2017 07:36

JRM understands that the law is different to his personal opinions, but he is able to have both personal opinions and a respect for the law. Shame some others don't allow others the same.

MissHavishamsleftdaffodil · 08/09/2017 08:17

If you believe no one should be allowed to say these things or be a politician in case stupid people vote for them - what are you going to do about democracy? This was the massive problem I had with Labour as dreamed up by Mandelson, the 'post democratic era' where professional politicians made decisions that voters were kept out of and 'guided' to prevent democracy derailing the agenda.

Brown, declaring a woman who tried to talk about her fears on immigration to be a bigot is another aspect. This refusal to listen, this 'people who think this shouldn't be allowed to exist' thinking has led to Brexit and Trump. Disenfranchised angry people who felt silenced and rejected by the establishment.

I can respect and appreciate someone being clear about their views without agreeing with them in the slightest. It doesn't mean I respect their views, it doesn't mean a vote for them. It's then possible to confront those views and point out the problems with them, reason and argue and change people's minds rather than try to shut down anyone who has those views. Shut down, they go underground, get angry and resentful and more extreme, and figureheads like Trump emerge to represent them.

scaryteacher · 08/09/2017 08:33

Fence That is exactly what I was trying to say.

pigeondujour · 08/09/2017 08:35

He doesn't seem to have any desire to impose his views on the country he's just stating his own personal moral beliefs

JRM understands that the law is different to his personal opinions, but he is able to have both personal opinions and a respect for the law

This is the trouble with lauding him for being "honest", you end up with people believing this. Have a look at number one on the list of 'policy comparisons' on his voting record on the public whip.

When did any view expressed make you 'genuine' and not bigoted
NataliaOsipova · 08/09/2017 08:41

I'm going to try again after last night's post went puff!

I think, to a large extent, we get the politicians we deserve. People vote for free beer and circuses ot for the person who tries to discuss economics and how difficult and time consuming things will be to resolve. Therefore politicians promise free beer and circuses. It's rather circular. There was a woman interviewed on Newsnight before the referendum saying "I'm going to vote UKIP. They talk common sense. Why can't the other parties do that?". This summed it up for me - because the answer is that macroeconomics is complex. There are differing theories and differing preferences for outcomes. It can't be reduced to a simple to understand sound bite. But we have got to a position where people don't seem to get that anymore - and feel entitled to express - and have respected - a firm opinion on any and every issue no matter how little they actually know about the subject. I'm always reminded of that episode of the West Wing where President Barlet says "There are very few days when things are black and white, and they always involve a body count." Life is shades of grey. It's complicated. But people find that hard to accept - and politicians pander to that.

Sorry to take this into Brexit territory, but I was talking to my uncle the other day. He's a reasonably, if not brilliantly, educated man. He said he voted Leave "because of the bureaucracy". Ten minutes of a discussion about the current account deficit and the potential for inflation resulting from the currency deflation left him gaping and asking "Why did nobody say that?" The answer of course, is that they did, Uncle Bob. The IMF did. The Bank of England did etc etc. But they are dry, complicated subjects to discuss. And it's easier to look at Boris in front of a bus promising £350m free money. And politicians know this and this is why they do it....

As a result, people sense that politics "isn't genuine" - in the same way a child can tell if you are giving her a load of soft soap or waffle. This is fair - it isn't. So then the backlash begins ("we were lied to" etc). So someone like Rees Mogg comes along and is able to articulate a straightforward opinion he obviously believes and people like that. Because it's a contrast.

As I've said upthread, I respect that. Not least because he knows it's politically perilous. And it's a perfectly reasonable belief in the context of his Catholicism (albeit one with which I profoundly disagree). Where's the problem? The problem is that it isn't black and white, just like life isn't black and white - and people can't move on from that to a sensible debate about the wider issue, which is inevitably very complex. It ends up about liking or not liking the man, not about debating the views he has expressed. People seem unable to do that anymore. Everything has to be simplified and personal. You see that on here all the time. Someone expresses a view someone else disagrees with - she's called a bigot, a misogynist, a rape apologist, a victim blamer. This is part of the problem too. Debate should be seen as a positive thing that allows all views to be expressed and a working consensus to emerge, not as an us versus them battle.

Sorry - long.... Blush

ilovegin112 · 08/09/2017 08:43

I agree with him on the wind turbines

squishysquirmy · 08/09/2017 08:54

It is possible to be both genuine and bigoted.
Spouting a "controversial" opinion does not, of course, prove that someone is genuine. They could just be cynical enough to know exactly what they can get away with, and be exploiting the fact that many people will interpret this as "genuine".

What really gets me (and I am not trying to turn this into a TAAT) is people who claim that voicing disagreement with the controversial opinions of a public figure is somehow against free speech, and that judging a powerful, influential politician for their words and deeds is somehow terribly unfair and bigotted. I can't get my head around that kind of thinking at all.

squishysquirmy · 08/09/2017 08:58

Also, lots of people liked Trump because he was "genuine" Hmm

formerbabe · 08/09/2017 08:58

I'm completely pro-choice. I have no issue with some people being pro-life as long as they don't force their views and opinions on others. I don't believe that being pro-life is bigoted necessarily.

histinyhandsarefrozen · 08/09/2017 08:58

Do some posters not understand the OP?

She has wondered why people 'admire' JRM for his supposed 'honesty'?

She hasn't once said that JRM should be banned. She hasn't said he shouldn't be allowed to speak. She hasn't attacked free speech.

I wonder why they do too, op. Bizarre.

tiggytape · 08/09/2017 09:05

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LairyMcClary · 08/09/2017 09:07

The amount of people I've heard/read saying well 'I don't agree with him' BUT at least he is a genuine politician! How is this right?! Has politics really sunk this low

What would you prefer? That he pretends to have views that he does not have instead, or that only people with particular viewpoints were allowed to be politicians?

Because neither is better than the reality.

lljkk · 08/09/2017 09:22

For me, JRM's views on abortion don't = bigotted.
Blinkered & very insensitive, sure, but not = bigot.

Anne Widdecombe (she was on BBC radio about this yesterday) holds similar views as JRM, but she expresses them much more compassionately & with respect for the opposing viewpoints. And she's right that people should argue about the evidence in favour / against an opinion, not try to dismiss the opinions with personal slurs.

There are so many excellent reasons to dislike & oppose JRM without having to label him a bigot on the abortion issue.

Mind you, Widdecombe is respected for her genuineness precisely because she can express respect for other viewpoints. JRM hasn't shown that ability.

Laiste · 08/09/2017 09:29

Yes, as some recent posters have explained (very eloquently) people are saying they admire him for not hiding behind the usual 'this will please the majority' rhetoric.

I'd admire a person who stood up and said they strongly believe we should all be wearing waste paper baskets on our heads every Friday while singing the hallelujah chorus - but i would not vote for them.

So - would i describe them as genuine? Yes. Would that fact alone win my vote? No.

MadamMinacious · 08/09/2017 09:31

I think he's morally repugnant and self-centred and I don't give a toss how honest he is. He can hold these genuinely held views and I can genuinely dislike him and think he is dangerous for them. His popularity with people is problematic and any respect for him for his 'honesty' is misplaced because in the end it is hard to respect someone so focused on one class and who considers the vast majority of the nation disposable scum however forthright he is.

Kaija · 08/09/2017 09:38

If, say, Sadiq Khan had been invited onto GMB and had expressed identical views to JRM on the basis of his religion, I do hope the "he's perfectly entitled to his opinion" crowd would be feeling equally sanguine about it.

babybarrister · 08/09/2017 09:39

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babybarrister · 08/09/2017 09:46

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amicissimma · 08/09/2017 09:50

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Hoppinggreen · 08/09/2017 09:59

Obviously I totally abhor his views but I do think he has a right to them.
In the same way I hate racism, sexism and homophobia but recognise some people are these things but I would challenge them ( and do)
I don't agree it's brave to express such awful opinions but I do t sort of admire the fact that someone can believe in anything so strongly that they jeopardise their career over it
Or its possible that he's an arrogant arsehole

Anniegetyourgun · 08/09/2017 10:00

Not with the Sadiq Khan thing again! Sadiq Khan has not yet been heard to express identical views to Jacob Rees Mogg. Maybe that's because he is less honest, or just maybe it's because he doesn't hold those views?

Tell you what, though, there was another fellow a couple of years ago who used to stand up and speak forthrightly as his beliefs dictated. He was greatly vilified and there were many calls to deport him. What was the name - Abu Hamza? OK, you couldn't have voted for him because he was an imam, not a member of parliament. But at least he was honest.

Anniegetyourgun · 08/09/2017 10:03

As for JRM himself, I don't think he's necessarily brave. I think he holds the views strongly enough to think that they are self-evidently right and that public opinion will catch up, or at the very least forgive him for it. It worked for the unspeakable Farage. And it looks like it is working for JRM too. It's a bit of a gamble, but not a huge, career-ending one.