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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be frustrated that it's impossible to have a discussion on abortion ethics....

999 replies

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 19:54

On one side there's those who believe an embryo has fully human rights from conception, and on the other those who believe the foetus has no rights at all until birth.

Both sides seem to put forward their position forcefully and dogmatically as though they're stating the obvious, and anyone who thinks the ethics surrounding it may be a more complex is shouted down, especially by some on the pro-chioice side who seem to view anyone who doesn't agree with their stance as a misogynistic slave of the patriarchy.

Personally, I'm not in either camp and find the ethical questions complex, with this being brought home the other evening when I was reading that Incas didn't regard babies and toddler as having human status until the age of 3-4 (where they had a ceremony to mark this rite of passage) and no longer totally dependent on their mothers and past the most perilous time wrt child mortality. It made me question again my thoughts on when we should a human should acquire rights, and frustrated me that any discussion on this immediately degenerates into a slanging match.

OP posts:
ChocolateWombat · 06/09/2017 22:18

GreatFuckability, I felt sad when I read your last post. It's because I just don't like the idea that pregnancies are ended because effectively the women have low self esteem or that the life they can offer isn't good enough. The idea that a foetus is aborted because a parent thinks they might be looked down on by society or face a harder life than many, just makes me really sad. Yes, some people may find they are looked down on or have a hard life, but I'd think few of them would wish they hadn't been born. I don't like the idea that people might choose to go through with pregnancy or not based on their material circumstances and self esteem. Can't a child have a good life even if the woman's background is hard or their childhood circumstances are not all rosy? Perhaps some women have a perception that they have nothing to offer a child and so abort....and its that which made me feel a bit sad.

WhoresDoeuvres · 06/09/2017 22:20

Yes, some people may find they are looked down on or have a hard life, but I'd think few of them would wish they hadn't been born

You may wish to do a stint on an NHS mental health ward or do a shift with the Samaritans. It is a frequent and fervent wish for many people.

Those that do not attempt suicide often commit suicide in more passive ways, e.g. alcohol and drugs.

VestalVirgin · 06/09/2017 22:23

Here's one thing you can do if you want me to calmly discuss the interesting question of at what point exactly a fetus can be considered a person.

Fight for a law, a law that is enshrined in the constitution of every country that has one, that declares women fully human beings who are entitled to bodily autonomy ALWAYS; ALWAYS AND FOREVERMORE.

Just like men, who as you will have noticed, are ALWAYS able to refuse to donate a kidney to a dying child. Hell, they are even entitled to do that after their own DEATH.

When everyone has accepted that all women, everywhere, have the right to do with their own bodies as they wish, which includes having abortions, THEN we can talk about the ethics. THEN I will sit here with a nice cup of tea and discuss at what point in a pregnancy I might feel that my own conscience (the only thing that matters there) won't allow me to have an abortion.

But as long as women don't have a right to our own bodies? Fucking leave me alone with your ethics discussions. Just leave me alone.

RebelRogue · 06/09/2017 22:24

@ChocolateWombat I believe abortion is right because a woman does not want to be a mother,good or bad.
My mum did not want (and couldn't safely) to be a mother. So she hid her pregnancy,starved herself and starved me as well so it didn't show. Gave birth and dumped me in a plastic box. Wouldn't even look at me(would hide under her covers) much less hold or feed me.
I was lucky though,I didn't end up in an orphanage. Orphanages where healthy babies grew up to be disabled physically and mentally . Babies,that as grownups many of them are still institutionalised as they can't function in the "real world". Babies that as grownups many of them ended up in the streets. Babies that lacked space to develop properly. Babies that were starved of human interactions and affection.
Have you ever visited an orphange? I have,as a young teen.The children there would literally grab on you asking if you were their mummy,of you came to take them home.

Anyways as I was saying I got lucky,I got adopted yay! I was also physically and emotionally abused by my adoptive mother. I was sexually assaulted by two members of my family.

But hey we were all fucking born and had a life and abortion was illegal.

So while logically I can see where people might be coming from with limits for this and rules for that,in my eyes it is a slippery slope to making abortion illegal or really difficult to obtain. And that's fucking terrifying...

stitchglitched · 06/09/2017 22:24

Bloody well said VestalVirgin.

WhoresDoeuvres · 06/09/2017 22:25

Rebel that was a very moving post, thank you for that. Harrowing.

AHedgehogCanNeverBeBuggered · 06/09/2017 22:27

@RebelRogue don't be so obtuse. That's like saying killing a person in self-defence is the same as murder.

stitchglitched · 06/09/2017 22:30

My Mum was terminally ill when she was pregnant with me. She already had 2 young children. If there had been a chance aborting me would have allowed her to have treatment and save her life I wish she would have done it. I don't know if my appearance impacted on her treatment options or hastened her death in anyway, I'm told not but who knows. But I wouldn't have wanted my 30 year old mother to die and leave young kids without their mum just for me to be born. She was already an autonomous individual with people who loved her and needed her. You can't compare an unborn foetus to that.

ChocolateWombat · 06/09/2017 22:30

Whores, so do you mean that because a child might be born into hard circumstances, ending the pregnancy might be the better option than finishing the pregnancy and bri ging the child into the world? Even though no one can be sure what life or metal health issues an individual child may grow up to have or not have? This seems so negative to me.

I think it is time for me to go. I have found this all very interesting and the more I hear the more complex I find it all. Essentially I think I would be keen for the to be fewer unwanted pregnancies - I know that there will always be the awful results of rape and abuse and failed contraception, but there are also lots of others which perhaps could be avoided and if those could be reduced, the here would be fewer people having to make these hard decisions.
I also think that whilst I do feel women must be allowed choices, there are issues of timescale and points after which a foetus should be protected. I don't know when that point is and am glad I don't have to decide that, but I think it is right that there are people whose job it is to speak for and legislate to protect the unborn.

twelly · 06/09/2017 22:33

Everyone is entitled to their views, those views are often due to their beliefs and experience, I believe that if you have a considered view I've you have thought about it you are entitled to that view. We live in a free country. One of the reasons it is hard to debate this issue is because people of different views use emotive insults - both sides such as bigot, murderer etc etc. For this reason people feel they can't express their views and therefore discussion is silenced. .

GreatFuckability · 06/09/2017 22:37

What you call negative chocolate, I call realism.
I agree with whore, if you think people wouldn't rather be dead than live shit lives, you've not experienced the lives of countless people with mental health issues, drug and drink issues.
Life is not always sweetness and light, and it doesn't always get better. Sometimes it just gets shitter until it ends.
That's not to say I don't think poor people shouldn't have kids. Or those in less than ideal circumstances, because many people can and do have decent lives in those circumstances, i'm simply saying if someone sees that their childs life would be less than what they'd hope and chooses not to bring that life into the world, then that is a perfectly valid choice. Being alive isn't always better.

Niminy · 06/09/2017 22:39

Yes. But I don't believe in holding other people captive to my personal ethical views.
People make ethical decisions all the time but we don't hold other people to our decisions.

But our ethical decisions involve other people all the time. And when we are talking about things where there is a law involved, such as abortion, then it isn't just an individual ethical decision. Lawmakers have to legislate on the basis of what, as a society, we have decided our collective ethics are. In particular, they have to decide where the limits of personal freedom and choice lie.

I might make a personal ethical decision that killing people is not at all wrong and consider myself free to act on my belief, but I think most people in our society would view that as completely abhorrent and agree that I should be prevented from killing people. They would agree that my personal ethical decision was a wrong one, and that there should be a limit on my personal freedom and choice in this case.

Saying a thing is simple doesn't make it so. There are many, many difficult issues around abortion, lots of them have been aired on this thread. The difficult issues about the suffering of women don't go away just because we consider the rights of the foetus; by the same token the rights of the foetus don't disappear just because we take account of the suffering of women. That's why it's a difficult issue without any easy answers - and it is also why the law as it currently stands, which is a fudge, enjoys the support of the majority in this country.

hackmum · 06/09/2017 22:44

hedgehog: out of interest, what do you think "obtuse" means?

AssassinatedBeauty · 06/09/2017 22:45

What rights do people think that a foetus has or should have? At the moment, in the UK a foetus legally has no rights apart from not being aborted post 24 weeks, except in certain circumstances. I'm not sure that even counts as a right given that it's not universal.

notanotherNC · 06/09/2017 22:46

I am pro choice in every situation. Until the foetus is born it is part of the mother and all women should have full autonomy over their bodies. As soon as the baby is born, at whatever time in the pregnancy, it is then a human. Prior to that it is being kept alive fully by the mother and is therefore her choice to do what she wants. I don't see any wiggle for debate at all personally.

WhoresDoeuvres · 06/09/2017 22:49

Legally, the foetus cannot really have rights or abortion becomes murder.

Ethically? I ascribe moral rights to the person the foetus will become, e.g. right to freedom from suffering as much as is practicable. For example, i would not personally birth a baby who would live in pain for a short while and them die (e.g. incurable illnesses). Others disagree.

My main focus is always on the baby/person and their quality of life. I have been suicidal many times in my life and would never want anyone to go through hell.

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 22:52

Vestal

Your post is intolerant to the point of bigotry... a total refusal to engage with an issue unless the other person agrees with you! There has been much more open discussion on this thread than I had feared, and I'm grateful for those from all sides of the argument for keeping it (in the main) good tempered. Your post undermines this thread and is the kind of thing I am sick of seeing... I'm (pleasantly) surprised it's taken so long.

If I did agree to the full, complete and total autonomy you are stridently proposing, then I'd be agreeing to support the unfettered right for abortion without limitation up to a foetus' term. In that scenario the foetus' rights would be entirely subordinate to the mother, so foetus can't have any meaningful rights.... so there's be nothing to discuss.

It's the attitude of pro-choicers who refuse to engage with abortion ethics unless you agree with them that I find so frustrating....

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coconuttella · 06/09/2017 22:55

Prior to that it is being kept alive fully by the mother and is therefore her choice to do what she wants. I don't see any wiggle for debate at all personally.

After birth the baby is also totally dependent on the mother! Does she have the right to do what she wants with the baby?

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Mumof56 · 06/09/2017 22:57

There seems to be a belief by some that abortion prevents people from committing suicide and no one that has had an abortion has ever committed suicide because of it. Hmm

Niminy · 06/09/2017 22:57

"Until the foetus is born it is part of the mother and all women should have full autonomy over their bodies. As soon as the baby is born, at whatever time in the pregnancy, it is then a human."

But the foetus and the mother are separate: once the placenta has formed they have separate blood supplies; they have different genetic material (so the woman's immune system has to be prevented from attacking the foetus); the foetus can, indeed does, harm the woman's body - for example if it is rhesus negative. And if the foetus can feel pain (which research has established) that the mother does not feel, then they are separate beings, aren't they? Though the foetus is being kept alive by the mother (although I think if I follow your reasoning,, the woman cannot be considered a mother until she has given birth), after a certain point any foetus would be born alive and therefore would have to be prevented from having independent life (or, in plain terms, killed) before or after delivery if it were aborted.

AssassinatedBeauty · 06/09/2017 22:57

A baby isn't totally dependent on its mother after birth. Anyone can take care of it if necessary - I didn't see my first child for a day and a half after birth as I was unwell. He was looked after perfectly well by other people.

RebelRogue · 06/09/2017 22:57

After birth the baby is also totally dependent on the mother!

Uhm no,after the birth the baby can be cared after by a lot of people.

RebelRogue · 06/09/2017 22:59

There seems to be a belief by some that abortion prevents people from committing suicide and no one that has had an abortion has ever committed suicide because of it. 

Yes that is exactly what PP's have said.

And I'm the frikking obtuse one?!?

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 23:00

To follow up on my last post, the oft used argument that because the foetus is entirely dependent on the mother, the mother has the right to do as she chooses would be seen as abhorrent if applied in other circumstances.

A disabled child may be totally on their parents.... do they have the right to do whatever they like to the child, including kill him/her? Of course not! I'm not saying that a foetus necessarily has human rights, just that this particular argument is especially flawed.

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BertieBotts · 06/09/2017 23:00

Honestly, OP, I used to think this too... but actually if you look at pro-lifers' arguments they do not boil down to "the foetus is a person and being alive is better even if they are born into a shitty life, it's better than being dead." That is an argument/moral position, of course, but actually it tends to be a shallowly thought through one, because when you start to dig into the issue and really seriously look at it, it becomes clear that pro-choice is the only morally defensible position, no matter how uncomfortable a person is with abortion, in the end. And it's nothing to do with a foetus "not being a real person" - but it does sort of end up as a useful shorthand.

If you genuinely believe that abortions should be reduced/avoided you have to look at the reasons that women choose abortion, but pro-lifers are almost never willing to do this. In fact you get all kinds of complicated mental gymnastics like "My abortion is the only moral abortion" when people stick stubbornly to a viewpoint without being willing to explore what it actually means that they are saying.

It's important to look at why because making something illegal doesn't make it magically go away; you can't reduce something without working out why it's happening. And the funny thing is that when you look at why, you find out that the vast majority of women who choose abortion are distressed by this choice and feel that it's something that ideally they would not like to do but that they have no better options. Most individual abortion stories, the average person would read and agree "It was the only possible choice she had". It's not something that people choose lightly, it's something they turn to when they are desperate. So to reduce abortion the most effective tactics are to reduce the number of women in the situation where they feel it's the only solution - increase access to birth control and education as to how it works, increase benefits for parents particularly single mothers, toughen up on rape and/or completely overhaul how rape complaints are dealt with, toughen up on abusive relationships, stop teaching young girls that coercive relationship behaviours are "sexy", toughen down family courts so that abusers can't gain such easy contact with their children, massively increase financial and practical support for families with disabled children and completely change how disabled people are seen within society. None of this is easy, much of it is impossible but some of it is doable or at least possible to make progress towards. And logically, you'd expect pro-life people, if they genuinely believe that a foetus's life is the important part of abortion, would be open to solutions that make women feel more positive about the choice to keep their baby or that didn't cause that life to be created in the first place. Many women choose abortion because they genuinely believe that not being born is a better solution for that potential baby than for them to have the life they believe they can provide. It's not always because they don't want the responsibility.

However, again, what you usually find is the mind boggling position that pro-lifers are actively against many of these things - proper birth control and decent financial support for single mothers and conviction for rape and so on. In fact many of them are so against them that they go the opposite way, and want to BAN birth control, cut disability support, etc etc. It's startling because it's so at odds with this viewpoint - that unborn babies' lives are important and we must protect them - that they insist is the number one, the most important point. It's not, it's so clearly not, because they're supporting causes which go directly against this all the time. So in that case the only real conclusion is that they don't really care about saving lives of unborn babies at all - what pro-life is about, is either a completely non thought out viewpoint of "Ooh killing babies is bad." Well, duh. Nobody likes the thought of babies being killed, nobody throws an abortion party. Or it's quite a well thought out and secretive position of wanting to punish women for having sexual agency or daring to have sex outside of a stable marriage (they also never seem to quite believe that well-off married women could possibly seek abortion and instead have all kinds of ideas about the "type" of woman - or girl - who seeks abortion.)

Again even if you have reservations about abortion after a certain amount of time perhaps, it does help to look at the issue in depth, to look for example at the amount of abortions which happen at these gestations, to read personal testimonies of women who have made this decision, whichever way they went in the end. In fact the amount of abortions performed late are extremely small, almost exclusively for medical reasons, when the baby would not survive (or survive for a short time or survive with an extremely poor quality of life) and do have benefits over letting the pregnancy go to term such as a reduced risk of infection or birth injury to the mother, increased pain relief options, less strain on mental health. But most women who find out they are pregnant too late for abortion or whose access to abortion is delayed for whatever reason decide that a late term abortion would be too traumatic to go through with anyway, even if it was legal. Most women already make that decision for themselves, and I can't imagine that it's an easy thing to go through, even if it is considered kinder to the baby. Anybody who does choose that, again, is in a horrible mental place and I don't envy them.

So in the end even if you believe that a foetus is a person and has a right to life, what protection does making abortion illegal afford those foetuses? None, essentially - because women who are desperate and see abortion as their only possible option do desperate things. What little chance you have to influence the decisions of a few also comes at a huge cost - to the women denied abortion, to their families, to their already-born children.

Maybe it's not clear cut but to me I think most people once they logic everything right down in the real world, not simplifying the issue (it IS complex), not looking at fantasy scenarios like unwanted babies being adopted by nice infertile couples and living happily ever after, can see that making abortion illegal might help a few foetuses survive when they might not have but at what cost? Is it not better to, understanding most pregnancies are terminated very early when the choice is available, let women make a safe clean legal choice - and hopefully they don't have to, but if they do feel forced to, isn't it better that they have sanitary and regulated conditions for that decision? It doesn't make any sense to add red tape to the emotive issue of "aborting perfectly healthy babies at 39 weeks" - in reality, that would never happen, because who would?