To be frustrated that it's impossible to have a discussion on abortion ethics....

[coconuttella]

On one side there's those who believe an embryo has fully human rights from conception, and on the other those who believe the foetus has no rights at all until birth.

Both sides seem to put forward their position forcefully and dogmatically as though they're stating the obvious, and anyone who thinks the ethics surrounding it may be a more complex is shouted down, especially by some on the pro-chioice side who seem to view anyone who doesn't agree with their stance as a misogynistic slave of the patriarchy.

Personally, I'm not in either camp and find the ethical questions complex, with this being brought home the other evening when I was reading that Incas didn't regard babies and toddler as having human status until the age of 3-4 (where they had a ceremony to mark this rite of passage) and no longer totally dependent on their mothers and past the most perilous time wrt child mortality. It made me question again my thoughts on when we should a human should acquire rights, and frustrated me that any discussion on this immediately degenerates into a slanging match.

hairy

It's pathetic isn't it. This has nothing to do with being left wing, and actually I am not, or indeed politics at all. Why would it?

VDB yes I know that. I do know the law but my opinion is it's wrong.

Baby being an inconvenience is a perfectly sensible reason to abort and it's usually the reason for most early terminations and thank god here we can do that.

And why on earth does anyone assume those of us who support terminations for any reason at any stage hate babies or dehumanise them??

I have 5 much loved children and 2 grandchildren but also not being as thick as a plank I can see other women have different lives and may need to make different choices which I feel society should support not seek to control, or punish.

Do you honestly think there are hundreds of women at 36 weeks pregnant likely to say 'fuck this baby lark get rid doc please'

Ffs the hysteria in this debate isn't from the pro choice posters it's from the forced birth brigade.

Do you honestly think there are hundreds of women at 36 weeks pregnant likely to say 'fuck this baby lark get rid doc please

They do think that, because they are misogynistic and patronising.

Oh and by the way, I'm no longer going to give a reason why I requested an abortion. My reason was no more valid than anyone else's reason.

I have three children, all wanted, one with special needs identified after birth.

There's a document published by Marie Stopes or BPAS titled ' 32 reasons not to lower the 24 week abortion limit' which outlines the age/life situation/ reasons for seeking post 20 week termination of pregnancy of 32 women.

It offers a somewhat more reality based perspective than the 'do foetuses dream?' brigade.

Over one third of terminations at any stage are a result of unwanted pregnancy causes by contraception failure.

As is evident from this thread, many abortions are carried out on the grounds of inconvenience these days and this is why the regulation is needed and honesty is needed about the development of a fetus

So what's a worthy reason to abort?

If I got pregnant now damn straight it would be an inconvenience. I run my own free lancing company. So my income would be seriously diminished. Which would mean I would lose my house leaving my 10 year old DD, baby and I homeless. So yeah. Bit inconvenient and why I take all necessary step to prevent pregnancy.

A contraception fail would equal an abortion for me and thank goodness I live in a society that is my choice to freely make

If I had another baby it could kill me, would I be allowed an abortion?

(Actually I wouldn't. Where I live nobody is allowed one, for any reason)

I have supported colleagues who decided to have an abortion, one was a teenager who was terrified of telling her parents, didn't know who the father was and was in a desperate state. I held her hand, told her I would take her to the clinic and she wouldn't be alone. I would never have an abortion but don't believe in judging others for their decisions, however, I wasn't sure how to respond when a colleague suddenly announced she had an abortion because if she hadn't she wouldn't have been able to afford her new conservatory. I have no idea why she suddenly decided to announce that, we weren't discussing abortions, pregnancies or anything even vaguely related.

If I found I was pregnant now, I too would abort. I'm in my late forties, so it's wildly unlikely, but on the other hand, how many of us have stories of the relative who 'thought it was the menopause, and then...'?

It's something I wouldn't have contemplated when younger or less knackered, but I simply can't imagine coping with another pregnancy with dodgy joints, nor getting up with babies three times a night while the older kids grit their teeth and complain about exam revision, nor plugging on at childrearing for another 18-20 years until pension age.

'Put bluntly, abortions make sense for Britain socially and financially. ....25% of pregnancies result in abortion......25% more school places.....'

I think we should recognise this is the reality in people thinking about this. Choices are made for social and financial reasons and the idea that there is a moral consideration has slipped down the priority list for some and off it for others.

In order to be able to say 'I don't want to be pregnant, so I won't be pregnant under any circumstances and at any point...it is totally my choice and mine alone' we have to reduce the rights of the foetus to pretty much zero. And that is what people have done and what they need to do to be able to take this view on a broader level or individually. Taking the view that all women can choose abortion at any point in any circumstance, means society saying that no-one apart from the woman who is pregnant has any responsibility towards that unborn life. It is an individualistic position in the extreme - to say everyone can do as they wish. Usually we are not willing to take this view if there is an impact on others, even if we are pretty individualistic. We don't like individual choices which harm others, such as theft, vandalism or other crimes. I am not saying abortion is a crime, but it is an act which has consequences for another....the unborn. And I think many in society continue to think that society should protect the unborn, certainly beyond a certain point in pregnancy....that as a society we do have responsibility to protect and legislate protection for others and thAt everyone cannot just do what suits them individually. In my view, being pro-choice thought to full term is to deny the rights of the foetus...it is to put a woman's choice always above that of the foetus, which cannot speak for itself or protect itself. I am glad we have legislation which puts time limits on abortion and doesn't allow choice right up until 40 weeks, because without that I think we would be a society who only values individual choice and who wouldn't be ineteretsed in the consequences for others of individual choices.

And yes, less abortions would mean more children in care, more children in schools and in the hospitals....all costing money. 'Abortion makes financial sense' said a previous poster. Do we want to be a society where such choices are financial?

@boopsy do you really think that allowing abortion on demand without limit would result in women having abortions at 40 weeks or similar? I think you'd find that it would be exceedingly vanishingly rare, if it ever happened at all.

boopsy

Yes because of course there are hoards of heavily pregnant women just waiting for a chance to crish their babies head in

Now respectfully here's a grip please take one

hairy yes agree and Elendon you owe no one an explanation

aking the view that all women can choose abortion at any point in any circumstance, means society saying that no-one apart from the woman who is pregnant has any responsibility towards that unborn life

No, for many of us it is saying it is not a life at all.

Can people truly not understand how wrong it is that anyone other than the pregnant woman can decide?

I remember an argument on here a while ago where certain posters argued that a woman should have the right to choose up until birth

I was one of them. I stand by it, wholeheartedly. I don't think it would ever actually happen but then I trust women to make their own decisions.

When a women says she has the right to birth, she really meant being induced because the baby is either stillborn or can't survive on its own,(the baby may be missing an organ such as a brain)

It seem dangerous to perform an abortion near full term unless the baby have not grown at all.

Chocolate I am the one you're quoting and it's a shame you didn't quote the other half of my post which was about morality.

However, abortion is frequently a financial decision. We can also correlate women and children's financial security by nation with access to abortion. Poor women keep having babies and getting poorer.

And yes, less abortions would mean more children in care, more children in schools and in the hospitals....all costing money. 'Abortion makes financial sense' said a previous poster. Do we want to be a society where such choices are financial?

none of those issues are purely, or even mostly financial in their issues. being in care costs money...it also costs mental health, future employment, the ability to look after your own children when they come and many many other areas of life.
being in school costs money...it also impacts the education of everyone if classes are bigger, it impacts the ability to identify and help those with special needs.
being in hospital costs money...it also impacts quality of care and diagnosis and survival rates.

its not about reducing it to finances, its being realistic.

The current law could be improved. I would keep the disability non disability distinction. I would keep the current limit for abortion for non disabled babies but the lie that is required to be found that the woman would be mentally injured or whatever it is if the pregnancy continued is just pointless. Just say abortion on demand up to x weeks and after that only for disability. By all means add in some compulsory cooling off period and counselling.

I agree with VDBfamily. With regard to abortion on demand up to 40 weeks who will carry out the terminations. Surely you can't expect doctors and nurses to try to save a premature baby and in the next theatre one is being aborted that would be able to survive. Does the right to abortion on demand up to the point of birth take any account of the effect on medical staff involved.

It would be great if these discussions could stay with lived experience rather than drift off into cyber space as soon. As the issue of women's rights are mentioned

Read the RCOG's guidelines on late abortion. That answers the questions

By all means add in some compulsory cooling off period and counselling

No thank you, please do not.

With regard to abortion on demand up to 40 weeks who will carry out the terminations

Nobody, probably, unless in very extreme situations. But since no-one would ask for it unless in very extreme situations, it's all a moot point. Which is all the more reason to have that as the law, because the practicalities will take care of themselves anyway.

As early as possible, as late as necessary. It's all we really need.