To be frustrated that it's impossible to have a discussion on abortion ethics....

[coconuttella]

On one side there's those who believe an embryo has fully human rights from conception, and on the other those who believe the foetus has no rights at all until birth.

Both sides seem to put forward their position forcefully and dogmatically as though they're stating the obvious, and anyone who thinks the ethics surrounding it may be a more complex is shouted down, especially by some on the pro-chioice side who seem to view anyone who doesn't agree with their stance as a misogynistic slave of the patriarchy.

Personally, I'm not in either camp and find the ethical questions complex, with this being brought home the other evening when I was reading that Incas didn't regard babies and toddler as having human status until the age of 3-4 (where they had a ceremony to mark this rite of passage) and no longer totally dependent on their mothers and past the most perilous time wrt child mortality. It made me question again my thoughts on when we should a human should acquire rights, and frustrated me that any discussion on this immediately degenerates into a slanging match.

How can people kill a healthy feotus of 24 weeks and give birth to it dead after they have felt it moving inside them, knowing it has all human features and might have been saved if it were not killed in the womb?
I honestly think there is some humanity missing from anyone who can do this.

Completely agree with you MaisyPops. I am pro life also in my own heart, but when you hear of children being murdered by parents, neglected, growing up with no love and affection, these are things I actually consider. Rather than just blindly assuming once that little bundle of joy comes along mum will get over her rape/drug addiction and everything will be okay.

It is horrible and so difficult because for example, my DH was given up for adoption at 6 months old, his dad killed himself at that age too, and he spent years in the foster/childrens' home system only to end up being adopted by an abusive woman. Had I heard the circumstances around his birth and subsequent childhood, I would probably have said that the poor child would have been better off aborted. But here he is, handsome, strong, so caring and kind and a brilliant father. So I understand the emotion behind "pro life", but at the same time there are enough unwanted kids in the world with access to abortion, and a man did end his life around my DH's situation. So it is far from clear and simple, hence I will always be pro choice even if my heart can't agree with it.

I chose to terminate inconvenient pregnancies because I didn't want a family with an uncommitted partner. End. Of. Discussion.

I chose my family pattern when I was 43, fell pregnant a second time, miscarried, and on balance, curious, but not unhappy. But, I am not very maternal TBH.

Once again some people are making very clear that they are just pro birth and don't care about quality of life because fluffy pink clouds,unicorns,magic turn arounds and armies of devoted,loving couples plucking up all those unwanted babies.

By then, happily married and ready to be a family. For those that care, previous pregnancies were over before 8 weeks.

GreatFuckability - sorry to hear your story. I can see how it influences your view.
Do you think though (and I hope you don't take offence at my question - but your post, as a response to what I said, raised the question in my mind) that because of the things that happened in your childhood and the difficulties, that foetus' are better or sometimes better aborted if unwanted than born into such circumstances?
You mention low uni attendance. Yes that's absolutely true for children in care.....but uni attendance isn't the be all and end all of everything. People might feel looked down on....but is it better to have not existed?

I'm just querying this an an argument for abortion or for choice.

AtomHeart, abortion at 24 weeks would normally be for extreme medical reasons, such as the discovery of a serious life-limiting genetic condition which would definitely cause a protracted painful death for the baby, or the baby having developed with its brain incomplete, etc.

Difficult decisions aren't black and white, and I can see why some people decide between two heartbreaking scenarios that abortion is the better option. Every case is different.

And another side of this argument that's really important to consider is, what do those who completely oppose abortion genuinely think will happen if abortion is made illegal? Unfortunately, it is really really naive to think that banning abortion = removing that option for women. Women will simply be forced to do what they have done historically, which is to seek unsafe procedures which will likely be later term as I doubt many women desperate for an abortion will seek antenatal care.

All you are doing is trying to hide the problem away because it makes you uncomfortable. What there really needs is more education and freely available contraception, empowering women and girls to take charge of their own fertility and bodily autonomy. And having abortions (bearing in mind over 90% of UK abortions take place in the first trimester) legal, transparent and accessible. There are much better, less misogynistic and less physically and emotionally scarring to prevent abortion than banning it.

For instance, I disagree with racism, but I don't believe it's absolutely fine to be racist if that's your choice to be so. If I did you'd think I was mad! Why, because racism harms other humans with rights and dignity.
I don't agree with racism because acting thay way towards someone because of their race is a dick thing to do.But if somebody holds racist views then I'm not going to police their thoughts.
Crucially, racist acts are comitted against a an autonomous person in their own right.

There is no comparison between that and a foetus who is dependent on another for life.
if you're pro-life, you presumably believe the foetus should be afforded rights and dignity.
Yes. But I don't believe in holding other people captive to my personal ethical views.
People make ethical decisions all the time but we don't hold other people to our decisions.

There are many studies that show that PNS affects babies' development.

Having to deliver and raise an unwanted baby due to a stranger's perspective that an embryo is a human will increase the risk of PND drastically.

Children in the care system are at risk of abuse and Reactive Attachment Disorder, amongst other things.

Are pro lifers going to adopt all these unwanted babies? Or do you want a society filled with disturbed teenagers and adults who don't know how to have a loving relationship?

It's not an argument about snuggly newborns as far as I'm concerned. Babies are designed to be cute and endearing so we raise them, it's why they're so emotive. But as these people are babies for such a short time, it's about doing right by the adults born to the rape victim, the incest victim, the homeless mother, the domestic violence victim, the girl who is 16 and not ready, and the woman who's sensible enough to know it's not a good time and she can't give that baby a reasonable statt in life.

*PND

Sequence I don't dispute that, but it isn't necessarily the case.

Oh my goodness, some of the comments on here.

Do you honestly think women WANT to have abortions? Women don't have abortions because they want to, they have them because the alternative of having the baby is worse than having the abortion, for whatever reason that may be.

The reason why there is a time beyond which you can only have abortions for medical reasons is because the harm in those circumstances is considered even greater than the harm of a child that is unwanted for non medical reasons - it is a balancing of harm, it is one, however, that doesn't work in all circumstances.

If I were to find myself pregnant at the moment I would have an abortion because I couldn't possibly have another child right now. But I would prefer not to have to have the abortion, it's a balance of harm though.

chocolate no, we shouldn't make that choice for other people, but i stand by people having the right to decide that for themselves.

I lived in ireland and it is illegal there

This is a myth by the pro abortionists. Abortion is not illegal. It is permitted on valid medical grounds. www.thejournal.ie/legal-abortions-in-ireland-3469898-Jun2017/

Abortion on demand is what you are referring to being illegal

sorry hit enter too soon. It does colour my view and of course not going to uni and being looked down or whatever aren't the worst thing in the world, but I think if people don't want that for their offspring then they should be allowed to make the decision for them not to be born. Its not wrong to decide that a life that is going to be harder from the word go isn't what you want for a child of yours.

But Rebel, lots of wanted children can find they have poor quality of life. The parents who wanted them might go onto abuse them or neglect them.

People can have a bad childhood for many reasons. It is difficult too be certain about who will and by talking about quality of life given by parents I think you get into value judgements about who should be allowed to be parents in the first place - not where we really want to be!

I understand what you mean about pro-lifers being pro-birth. I think you are right. I think perhaps that is the only area they can make a judgement on. It is a concrete thing- a foetus is either allowed to continue to term and be born alive (birth) or aborted. This is a life or no life choice.
The quality of life a baby who is born will get is not a clear-cut outcome and those who are pro-life cannot be sure if the baby will have a good childhood or not...and they don't think that is the key I determining if a child of any type (planned or unplanned) should be conceived and be born, because they don't feel it is their role to police choices to have children. I guess they do feel it is their role to speak for foetus' which already exist but cannot speak or act for themselves to reach full term. I think that's why they might seem pro-birth.

Personally I wouldn't ever suggest abortion was right because the pregnant woman wouldn't be a good mother. I think the quality of the parenting is a totally separate matter.

WhoresDoevres, if you stand for Parliament, please count me in... at least on reproductive rights. I may need to consider other topics.

Thinking about this further, one of the issues that I have with the pro-life "lobbyists" (as opposed to people holding pro-life views) is that they are trying to control bodies that are nothing to do with them.

The same can't be said for women choosing to abort - certainly in early / mid term abortions, the foetus can't survive without being attached to its biological mother; the two bodies can't be separated without the death of the foetus and there is only one part with the cognitive ability to make a decision.

I struggle to understand why it is anyone else's business what someone does with their own body.

I think late term abortions for non-medical reasons are much trickier ethically, but also rare. I wouldn't support termination of life once a foetus is likely to be viable outside the mother (the mother should be able to request it is removed from her body, but not that it is killed prior to removal). There's possibly a wider point here about parental "rights" more generally; at what point do mothers / parents stop having the ultimate say over what happens to their child (some parallels here with some court cases over medical treatment when doctors / parents disagree I feel; it would be interesting to see whether there is any correlation between views on abortion and parents' rights to decide what medical treatment their young children receive)

AtomHeart

I find it unfathomable that someone would want to force someone else to carry a foetus they don't want for 9 months but let's agree to disagree.

OC only if i can stand using my current username.

I'm also team whore. thats a sentence i thought i'd never say.

Also, it's a fantasy to think that a woman who is forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy will do so without a fight.

Pro lifers may want to look into the methods back-street abortionists used in the UK before abortion was permitted. Many women died in those days or were gravely injured.

If the baby miraculousy survives that onslaught, what state will it be in? And then it has to live with a mother who wished it was not born. Not a life i would want for a person. Quality of life over quantity.

I'm pro choice.

More than anything else though, I'm for every child being wanted and having the best possible chance of a great childhood and life.

Forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want doesn't seem to be the best way to guarantee the above.

I think the militant pro-lifers really are the most hypocritical people you will find. They don't give a toss about women or girls forced to continue pregnancies they don't want. They certainly don't give a toss about the millions of children on this planet that are abused, starving and in need of a safe place to live. You can't discuss this subject with them as their only goals seems to be to force women and girls to give birth.

I had two horrendous pregnancies and births and have one child with a genetic condition that has a sever impact on her life and she needs a lot of care. I couldn't not have had another child because I simply couldn't cope with another child or gone through with another pregnancy. If I had become pregnant and found my self in a country were a termination was illegal I think I would have lost my mind. I simply could not have coped. But that's not for the pro-lifers to care about is it?

Even though I am an atheist and think religious doctrine is nuts quite frankly, because they believe it they should be able to force their ideals on everyone else.