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Original poster

To be frustrated that it's impossible to have a discussion on abortion ethics....

999 replies

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 19:54

On one side there's those who believe an embryo has fully human rights from conception, and on the other those who believe the foetus has no rights at all until birth.

Both sides seem to put forward their position forcefully and dogmatically as though they're stating the obvious, and anyone who thinks the ethics surrounding it may be a more complex is shouted down, especially by some on the pro-chioice side who seem to view anyone who doesn't agree with their stance as a misogynistic slave of the patriarchy.

Personally, I'm not in either camp and find the ethical questions complex, with this being brought home the other evening when I was reading that Incas didn't regard babies and toddler as having human status until the age of 3-4 (where they had a ceremony to mark this rite of passage) and no longer totally dependent on their mothers and past the most perilous time wrt child mortality. It made me question again my thoughts on when we should a human should acquire rights, and frustrated me that any discussion on this immediately degenerates into a slanging match.

OP posts:
christinarossetti · 09/09/2017 22:32

Actually, abortion isn't legal in the UK. The 1967 Act created loop holes in the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 to enable women to access abortion (with agreement of two doctors etc), but it is still unlawful for a woman to self-induce abortion without medical consent.

Lovingmybear2 · 09/09/2017 22:38

90% of British people

can tell the difference between killing an elderly person and a woman aborting a foetus. Probsbly 100% actually except you

Original poster
coconuttella · 09/09/2017 22:49

can tell the difference between killing an elderly person and a woman aborting a foetus. Probsbly 100% actually except you

Of course I know there's a difference! An analogy is never precise. You've not yet identified a hole in my logic on this point.

OP posts:
PurpleDaisies · 09/09/2017 22:51

You've not yet identified a hole in my logic on this point.

It's there in your statement-and elderly person is a person. Legally a foetus is not a person. That's the key difference.

itsbetterthanabox · 09/09/2017 23:01

Op no there are ways of performing late term abortions that don't involve the woman pushing and giving birth.

hairymaryquitecontrary · 09/09/2017 23:03

You've not yet identified a hole in my logic on this point

There is no logic, it's all hole.

Original poster
coconuttella · 10/09/2017 00:14

It's there in your statement-and elderly person is a person. Legally a foetus is not a person. That's the key difference.

Yes, it is a key difference, I agree that a foetus is not legally a person, and an elderly person is legally a person. Legal status did not feature in my argument though.

My issue was with the argument that a foetus shouldn't be regarded as an "actual person" because they are fully dependent on someone else.. As I have stated a number of times, I'm not arguing here that a foetus should or shouldn't be regarded as a person, rather that this particular argument isn't a valid one.

Why am I labouring this point? Because I am trying to work out for myself the ethics surrounding abortion, and suspect arguments such as that one lead to confusion and not clarity.

OP posts:
silverbell64 · 10/09/2017 00:17

Im pro choice too. If the person carrying a child decides she doesn't want to then an abortion is a must.

I have no idea why Mogg seems to think different. Oh I know, he's not a woman.

Original poster
coconuttella · 10/09/2017 00:18

There is no logic, it's all hole.

If all you can do is respond so dismissively, I assume you can't find anything wrong with it, otherwise you'd have pointed it out.

OP posts:
Dustbunny1900 · 10/09/2017 00:19

An elderly person does not require my body to live.
You cannot (should not) force someone to donate blood or organs or use their body for someone else's use without their consent. and that the reason. Bodily autonomy is the crux, not the fetus being "alive"..that point is what switched me from pro-life to pro choice overnight.
It's about who has more rights over a woman's body..that woman or someone else.

silverbell64 · 10/09/2017 00:21

If a woman was raped, no she should be made to have the baby.
If a woman learns that the child she would have is probably going to have deformities that she won't be able to cope with, then an abortion is an answer.

So many very prem babies should not be made to live nowadays, its pretty bizzare that abortion cannot be a choice.

silverbell64 · 10/09/2017 00:23

Mog is a dickhead and I hope he never gets close to a prime spot.

SuperBeagle · 10/09/2017 00:23

OP, if you can't differentiate between a pre-12 week foetus and a sentient person, then I'm not sure the rest of us can help you.

SuperBeagle · 10/09/2017 00:25

Also Mogg named his child Sixtus Boniface. Not sure his opinion is worth an ounce on any topic.

Original poster
coconuttella · 10/09/2017 00:26

I have no idea why Mogg seems to think different. Oh I know, he's not a woman.

So only men believe that on demand abortion to term? Hmm. I think you'll find surgery after survey show most women don't believe it either!...

It strikes me that those who believe in "abortion on demand to term" do so as it's seen as an article of faith to be a bone-fife left-wing feminist. Your credentials to be a member of this club depend on your agreement with it!

OP posts:
Original poster
coconuttella · 10/09/2017 00:28

OP, if you can't differentiate between a pre-12 week foetus and a sentient person, then I'm not sure the rest of us can help you.

Ffs. I'm talking about viable 28+ week foetuses, not 8 week embryos!

OP posts:
silverbell64 · 10/09/2017 00:29

I personally got preggers, how that happened is none of your damn business to be fair. I didn't want a baby, I opted for an abortion. Was I sad, well not really, I was 12 weeks at the time, so it was a sort of a formation. I think pro life people are very bloody weird to be honest. There again I think anything zealot like is pretty weird.

SuperBeagle · 10/09/2017 00:30

OP, then you're talking about only 8% of the abortions that take place in the UK. The majority of which aren't simply occurring because women "just don't want a baby".

Original poster
coconuttella · 10/09/2017 00:32

Dustbunny

That's a more reasoned position... Too tired to think further now.

OP posts:
silverbell64 · 10/09/2017 00:34

If I'm right, Mogg thinks that we should go full term whether it was a rape case or not. He also thinks that gay marriage should never happen. I think he's a twat and that's putting it mildly. He's being applauded for his downright disgusting attitude for being "steady" in his beliefs. Really?

Original poster
coconuttella · 10/09/2017 00:34

OP, then you're talking about only 8% of the abortions that take place in the UK.

Yes I am... I have never said I was anti-abortion! I have no issue with first trimester
abortion, and am unsure about 2nd and 3rd.

OP posts:
silverbell64 · 10/09/2017 00:35

Is he a closet mormon?

GreatFuckability · 10/09/2017 01:13

Given how vanishingly few abortions are carried out after the viability cutoff, and how many of those vanishingly few are for conditions incompatible with life, it seems like arguing for argument's sake to say that a 28-weeker would survive when the statistics suggest that it's more like 50/50 at that point and of the survivors a further 50% have significant life-limiting conditions (see eg this study). The vast, vast majority of abortions in Britain are carried out at 3-9w gestation, when the foetus weighs no more than about 2g and the placenta hasn't taken over fully. More crucially, the first sense (touch) only begins to develop at around 8w - this is by no means a sentient being. A close look at the statistics reveals that less than 0.1% of abortions in the UK are carried out after 24w (and only 2% after 20w). In fact there are fewer post-20w abortions than there are abortions on the grounds of anomalies in the foetus (eg 2877v3023 in 2015)

Comparing a foetus at 3-9w gestation to a premature neonate is at best disingenuous. Casting doubt on the morality of all abortions based on hypotheticals about late abortions shows a lack of understanding at best, and sheer bloody malice at worst

Abortions have been legal in Britain for fifty years this year. Rates bulge around times of financial crisis (the peak is 2007-2008 and is now reducing again). The abortion rate is around 25% of the live birth rate ... so we aren't talking about a few extra babies looking for adoptive families, but another 25% pressure on school places, medical provision, social security, etc. Put bluntly, abortions make sense for Britain: socially and financially. We cover the morality by providing guidelines to ensure those abortions come as early as possible, and with feticide before delivery where necessary

precisely this.

GreatFuckability · 10/09/2017 01:20

It strikes me that those who believe in "abortion on demand to term" do so as it's seen as an article of faith to be a bone-fife left-wing feminist. Your credentials to be a member of this club depend on your agreement with it!

I'm not in any club. I believe it should be allowed to term because the alternative is worse. simple as that. Bringing an unwanted, unloved child into the world shouldn't be made to happen.

The crucial difference in your analogy of the elderly person v foetus, by the way, is that the WAY in which they are dependent is completely different. needing someone to feed/wash/clothe you is not the same as needing to feed OF you to survive. If for some reason that elderly person needed someone to be attached to them via a drip for 24 hours a day and that person then decided they didn't want to do that anymore, then we'd be closer in terms of the analogy, and whilst you might think that person wrong on a moral level, they have every legal right not to be attached to that drip anymore. the result is, said elderly person would die.

GreatFuckability · 10/09/2017 01:20

clearly i mean OFF not OF...