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Original poster

To be frustrated that it's impossible to have a discussion on abortion ethics....

999 replies

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 19:54

On one side there's those who believe an embryo has fully human rights from conception, and on the other those who believe the foetus has no rights at all until birth.

Both sides seem to put forward their position forcefully and dogmatically as though they're stating the obvious, and anyone who thinks the ethics surrounding it may be a more complex is shouted down, especially by some on the pro-chioice side who seem to view anyone who doesn't agree with their stance as a misogynistic slave of the patriarchy.

Personally, I'm not in either camp and find the ethical questions complex, with this being brought home the other evening when I was reading that Incas didn't regard babies and toddler as having human status until the age of 3-4 (where they had a ceremony to mark this rite of passage) and no longer totally dependent on their mothers and past the most perilous time wrt child mortality. It made me question again my thoughts on when we should a human should acquire rights, and frustrated me that any discussion on this immediately degenerates into a slanging match.

OP posts:
hairymaryquitecontrary · 09/09/2017 19:15

You can't even spell foetus and living, ffs, please don't lecture the rest of us.

You do not know when life begins, neither do I. I believe it begins at birth. You can believe whatever the fuck you like, but you can't claim it as fact.

Elendon · 09/09/2017 19:20

No what you @CherriesInTheSnow wrote was:

Are you aware that babies see, hear and dream in the womb?

You are being emotive.

It's now understood that preterm babies can have difficulties with hearing and eyesight. It's a huge worry in special care units to ensure that eyes are protected. Hearing is not a given with pre term babies at all.

Elendon · 09/09/2017 19:22

Fetus is the USA spelling.

Elendon · 09/09/2017 19:26

I'm really not interested in whether you find the fraught, difficult and emotive care of pre term babies fascinating science - which I find chilling.

CherriesInTheSnow · 09/09/2017 19:32

Oh naff off with that, you did not once mention preterm care in the post I replied too, I was obviously talking about the dream thing in the womb being interesting science, stop trying to defame me by making me out to be some ghoul whondoesn't care about preterm infants, I'm 30 weeks pregnant and will find out in 2 weeks if my own baby will have to be delivered prematurely FFS Hmm

This discussion has gotten far too intense for a pregnant hormonal woman, why I thought it would be a good idea at this point in my life to engage in an abortion thread I'll never know.

Firefries · 09/09/2017 19:33

How can we debate this without emotion? It's about life. So emotion does come into it. How about we have an evening where we take someone else's view for a second? Try and see that they are right and we ourselves could be wrong/mistaken/just different. We don't all know everything, and there's a difference between something being true and truth. So how about it?

Elendon · 09/09/2017 19:39

Are you so fired up about those living in poverty @Firefries?

That's life after all, and extreme hardship

You did not once stop to think about those who have pre term babies, some at 26 weeks, but still you persisted with the see, hear and dream theme @CherriesInTheSnow.

How could you do that?

Lovingmybear2 · 09/09/2017 19:41

The emotion on this debate should only come from the pregnant woman and her right to choose what happens to her pregnancy.

Go ahead or abort.

No one else has the right to have emotions and angst about her decisions for her life and body.

CherriesInTheSnow · 09/09/2017 19:46

Well actually it was the very nature of early term babies that made me write that. Because to apply that a baby at 32 weeks (admittedly especially in my circumstances) was not living was abhorrent to me.

The truth is the DO have those biological functions in general, if development is normal they can see and hear by 20 something weeks.

If you genuinely think that you can go through a thread about abortion and not encounter any potentially emotionally triggering posts about babies, especially babies before full term, then honestly that's not my fault or problem.

MaisyPops · 09/09/2017 19:49

It's now understood that preterm babies can have difficulties with hearing and eyesight. It's a huge worry in special care units to ensure that eyes are protected. Hearing is not a given with pre term babies at all
That's the major reason for the 24 week cut off.
With medical advanves the survival rates of babies at 24 weeks has rapidly increased. Babies born at 24 weeks are classed as preterm births.

At 22 weeks I think it is classed as a miscarriage.

At 23 weeks it's a grey area because despite medical advances the chance of survival is exceptionally slim. Their skin is still gelatinous, their organs aren't fully formed. Even if they do survive the chances of being non-disabled and neurotypical are slim as the drugs required to develop are linked to long term and life limiting conditions.

Elendon · 09/09/2017 19:50

Once again, you are missing the point. Please stop with the hearing, seeing and dreaming nonsense. You are being emotive with that.

Elendon · 09/09/2017 19:55

Hearing and eyesight develop exponentially during the last trimester.

Mittens1969 · 09/09/2017 19:59

@CherriesInTheSnow, hope all goes well with your pregnancy. My DD2 and my niece were both born at 32 weeks and they're doing really well now (DD2 5 and DN 8). Flowers

Lovingmybear2 · 09/09/2017 20:01

I actually don't care sorry.

I have had 5 much wanted and loved babies but I have sufficient empathy and commen sense to know my life is my life.

Another woman has another life and I would support her choices. Especially about pregnancy

Al this 'well can a foetus hear? Is it a baby at 3 weeks or 33 weeks? Not my business.

Trust women to take the ridge decision for their bodies and unborn babies.

CherriesInTheSnow · 09/09/2017 20:06

Thank you so much mittens Flowers

Firefries · 09/09/2017 20:09

Elendon yes I have worked with people in extreme poverty. How does that make a difference?

Original poster
coconuttella · 09/09/2017 20:14

hairymaryquitecontrary

So if I had an elderly relative, totally dependent on me, it would be reasonable for me to kill him/her if I so chose simply because of that dependency? And you think that wouldn't be barbaric?!?

There are good arguments for giving women the right to choose, but the dependency one is one of the worst in my opinion.

OP posts:
christinarossetti · 09/09/2017 20:14

To address the original question... Yes, it's beyond frustrating that a sensible discussion about abortion rights is so difficult to have, largely it would seem that as with any discussion about women's rights, they quickly get pushed to the background whilst unrelated issues eg can a foetus dream? are debated.

If you don't want an abortion, fine, great don't have one. And afford other women the same bodily autonomy.

blueberrypie0112 · 09/09/2017 20:17

I was born deaf so none of this "hearing" or "seeing" is irrelevant to me. I am not even sure it belong to a abortion debate

Lovingmybear2 · 09/09/2017 20:19

cocunnt

My mum has altzimers. She's dependant on me and my dad. We won't choke her.

Wtaf does that have to do with a pregnant woman choosing what to do with her body

blueberrypie0112 · 09/09/2017 20:19

I mean relevant

MaisyPops · 09/09/2017 20:23

it would seem that as with any discussion about women's rights, they quickly get pushed to the background whilst unrelated issues eg can a foetus dream? are debated.
Exactly.
Medical limits for abortion are currently 24 weeks for good reason. They are drawn up by people with clinical knowledge, people who know more than your average 'i read that they dream' person.

If you don't want an abortion, fine, great don't have one. And afford other women the same bodily autonomy
My view entirely.

Lovingmybear2 · 09/09/2017 20:30

Yes indeed so rape.. what was she wearing, was she drunk, married, virgin.......

So you are pregnant? Are you a slag, is abortion you contraception? Were you raped? Prove it! Why do you want an abortion? You know the foetus is a baby and you may meet in heaven Hmm

Yes women are like children they need watching and nurturing and protecting from themselves or punished or they are saints!

Sickening

Original poster
coconuttella · 09/09/2017 20:38

*cocunnt

My mum has altzimers. She's dependant on me and my dad. We won't choke her. Wtaf does that have to do with a pregnant woman choosing what to do with her body

I'm referring to the argument that abortion is justified on the basis that the foetus doesn't have rights because it is totally dependent on the mother. As I said, there may be strong arguments for abortion on demand, but the dependency argument isn't one of them...

I'm not sure why there's this need to defend each and every argument. Just because a particular argument for a position can't be justified doesn't mean the position is wrong!

OP posts:
hairymaryquitecontrary · 09/09/2017 20:42

I'm referring to the argument that abortion is justified on the basis that the foetus doesn't have rights because it is totally dependent on the mother. As I said, there may be strong arguments for abortion on demand, but the dependency argument isn't one of them

you haven't actually understood the argument at all, so shouldn;t be refuting it.

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