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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To be frustrated that it's impossible to have a discussion on abortion ethics....

999 replies

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 19:54

On one side there's those who believe an embryo has fully human rights from conception, and on the other those who believe the foetus has no rights at all until birth.

Both sides seem to put forward their position forcefully and dogmatically as though they're stating the obvious, and anyone who thinks the ethics surrounding it may be a more complex is shouted down, especially by some on the pro-chioice side who seem to view anyone who doesn't agree with their stance as a misogynistic slave of the patriarchy.

Personally, I'm not in either camp and find the ethical questions complex, with this being brought home the other evening when I was reading that Incas didn't regard babies and toddler as having human status until the age of 3-4 (where they had a ceremony to mark this rite of passage) and no longer totally dependent on their mothers and past the most perilous time wrt child mortality. It made me question again my thoughts on when we should a human should acquire rights, and frustrated me that any discussion on this immediately degenerates into a slanging match.

OP posts:

MrsCharlieD · 09/09/2017 09:28

I'm pro choice but only to a point which for me is confusing and conflicting but I don't feel like I could say I'm always pro choice. The problem for me comes when the foetus is past a certain gestation. I struggle with my feelings that a 20+week foetus could be aborted for something like down syndrome, but if the foetus was found to have a condition which would not be compatible life then that I can understand. It's a very complex issue. I don't think it comes down to being pro choice or not, there are many other factors that come into it.

LairyMcClary · 09/09/2017 09:53

find it interesting that most pro choicers argue that no-one takes the decision to have an abortion lightly and no-one would use it as a form of contraception and yet there are posters on here today saying the opposite

how would you know what most pro choicers say? You don't.

AndNoneForGretchenWieners · 09/09/2017 09:57

mowgeli your use of the word 'jury' betrays your very intolerant thought process behind this suggestion. It indicates that you consider women seeking abortion to be criminals who need to be judged. And judged not just to assess whether it is safe for the woman to have the abortion, but judged by a group of people with on the face of it a stake in the anti abortion camp. And the inclusion of a mental health professional is suggesting that the woman is not sane or rational, and must be assessed to know whether her wish to end the pregnancy can be accepted or whether she is of unsound mind and must therefore lose autonomy and agency. It is truly horrifying.

mowgeli · 09/09/2017 10:03

Why have I hidden the thread mittens it's on my watching what are you a spy?

I am entitled to have my opinions just as every single one of you are. I have just defended my point of view and I haven't had a chance to develop any ideas as all of you are very much on the pathway to attack.

mowgeli · 09/09/2017 10:06

Discussion panel, whatever you want to call it.
It's actually about making sure the woman has adequate support following or before an abortion from a mental health perspective. To suggest everyone walks away after a late period feeling fine is lunacy. We all respond in very different ways to different situations and I can assure you there Is nothing wrong with being mentally unwell.

Why are you suggesting it's wrong to say someone needs psychological support? A lot of you on here are really bolshy about a very sensitive subject. I know people who have had abortions and all of them have struggled with it.

PurpleDaisies · 09/09/2017 10:06

It's actually about making sure the woman has adequate support following or before an abortion from a mental health perspective.

So why on earth did you suggest putting an infertile couple on it?

PurpleDaisies · 09/09/2017 10:07

And from your previous comments, you're being disingenuous to suggest this jury/panel is there to provide support.

mowgeli · 09/09/2017 10:08

I give up on you all.

What's wrong with having help to make and discuss a life changing decision.

Who said men were part of the panel.

I'm off out with my family to an open garden I'll leave you all to continue to shame my ideas without coming up with anything yourselves.

For anyone who has an issue with abortion has been shredded here.

PurpleDaisies · 09/09/2017 10:09

What's wrong with having help to make and discuss a life changing decision?

Again, what on earth does an infertile couple bring to that process?

Lancelottie · 09/09/2017 10:12

Infertile couple tends to imply that one of them is a man

MrsHathaway · 09/09/2017 10:13

For anyone who has an issue with abortion has been shredded here.

I expressed an issue with abortion and was calmly challenged, not "shredded". What's being "shredded" is your apparent issue with women as autonomous human beings.

JigglyTuff · 09/09/2017 10:14

Most abortion services offer counselling - both before and after the termination.

I know people who have abortions and not all of us have struggled with it. I haven't.

Mumof56 · 09/09/2017 10:14

It's all part of our disposable throw away society.

Don't want a bar of chocolate? Throw it in the bin.

Don't want a baby? Throw it in too. (Marie Stopes -foetal tissue from a succession of terminations left in open waste bins www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/20/watchdogs-release-damning-reports-marie-stopes-abortion-clinics/ )

streetface · 09/09/2017 10:14

comes onto discussion board. Sees someone has suggested women should be forced to go before a panel to have decisions about their body 'approved' by others. Backs slowly away and then runs

LairyMcClary · 09/09/2017 10:18

It's actually about making sure the woman has adequate support following or before an abortion from a mental health perspective

No it fucking isn't, you total liar! It would actually cause much more problems, which is what you want.

LairyMcClary · 09/09/2017 10:18

It's all part of our disposable throw away society

Don't be so stupid. Abortion has been part of the human experience since we lived in caves.

ChocolateWombat · 09/09/2017 10:21

I don't think most people choose abortion lightly at all.

However, there are some who do or like to suggest they did, even on this thread. One poster on this thread says they found themesleves pregnant at an inconvenient time, so terminated. end of. Those were her words. Others have referred to making the choice quickly, easily and without need for much thought before or after.

Sometimes I wonder if people say these things because they want to emphasise the issue of a woman's choice over her body, regardless of circumstances. I wonder if it really was so simple...perhaps it is.

I think that when people consider abortion, it is often tied up with thoughts about morality and ethics and personal judgements. Even if one takes the view that the woman and her rights over her body always supersede those of the foetus, the fact that there is a foetus involved, so another human life or potential human, means it is difficult not to think about people having abortions in light of oralist or ethics. To say it should be otherwise is unrealistic and I think ignores the fact that for many many people, the foetus holds a special place in people's hearts and in an ideal world we would hope there would be no unwanted pregnancies nor circumstances that result in them and therefore all would become babies with happy lives - clearly far from reality, but something most people would have a yearning for. So.....getting to the point now.....in light of this thinking about foetus' I think the population in general likes to think abortion is not taken lightly. People accept that terrible things and failures of contraception happen, but hope that people take responsibility for their actions and contraception and unwanted pregnancies are at a minimum level. They hope that people consider the options carefully and people don't choose abortion easily or lightly, even if that is their final choice. And isn't that because as society we see every foetus as either a life already or at least as a potential life, and as fellow humans we value it. I think this is even more strongly the case for foetus' closer to term.

I think pro-choicers might make their ideas more appealing and be greeted more sympathetically if added to their comments was the point that unwanted pregnancies are a sad thing and that minimising the quantity of them through education is important. Some pro-choice people on this thread say this, but it doesn't come up that often. What does seem to come up a lot is that unwanted pregnancy is due to abuse or failed contraception. The issue of lots of unwanted pregnancies and so lots of abortions being avoidable isn't often mentioned. Is this because it seems to be some kind of moral condemnation of those who are pregnant? I wonder if that is why is doesn't get mentioned very much. The reality is though, that some of the unwanted pregnancies and abortions could be avoided, and I think addressing this is absolutely vital and needs more discussion in an open way. How do we, in a modern society which broadly accepts women's rights to choose the sex life they wish, also promote sexual behaviour which doesn't result in unwanted pregnancy? Or do some people think that part of women's sexual freedom is a right to behave sexually in a way which may result in pregnancy, knowing abortion will always be available? I don't know how we promote women's freedom but responsible freedom, because it seems to me that whenever responsible action is mentioned, some women then see it as restrictive or judgemental.

AndNoneForGretchenWieners · 09/09/2017 10:25

Oh so it's for support rather than judgement. And do you propose then that it's optional, so women who don't need that support and are perfectly happy with their choice can opt out? And are you extending that support to all women who are pregnant, to make sure that those who are intending not to have an abortion are making the right decision? I suspect not. So just those silly women who think they don't want a baby but really they do, they will be damaged for the rest of their lives if they abort

Still repulsive no matter how you try to justify it. And as I mentioned upthread, I've had an abortion. I don't regret it but it has affected my mental health. But I may have been murdered or seriously assaulted if I hadn't had the abortion, so I lied to the doctors. How do you propose your panel gets round that? Lie detector?

NotACleverName · 09/09/2017 10:27

What's wrong with having help to make and discuss a life changing decision.

Because it's effectively implying that women don't know their own minds and need other people to make decisions for them. Call me crazy, but I'm not a fan of wanting to restrict anyone's bodily autonomy.

For anyone who has an issue with abortion has been shredded here.

Nobody is being shredded. Their points calmly refuted but definitely no shredding going on.

ChocolateWombat · 09/09/2017 10:30

Isn't this thing about a panel a red herring that is detracting from the real discussion here.

Most people would advise some form of counselling or discussion for those considering abortion. I've only heard 2 people,suggest a panel and only 1 a panel with an Infertile couple etc and other ideas which are clearly daft.

Returning to the OPs original post, I think the way this thread has moved on confirms what she has said - people seem unable to engage in discussion without becoming aggressive, dismissive and rude. Isn't is possible to point out why you disagree with elements of what other posters say without aggression?

LairyMcClary · 09/09/2017 10:30

Sometimes I wonder if people say these things because they want to emphasise the issue of a woman's choice over her body, regardless of circumstances

They couldn't possibly just be telling the truth, no?

So many offensive comments here, even the ones dressed up as concern and support. If anything, they are worse.

It doesn't matter if people choose it lightly or agonise over it. It doesn't matter if they regret it or think its the best thing they ever did. It doesn't matter how anyone else thinks of it.
All that matters is that women be left alone to make these decisions for themselves. It's not for you to have an opinion.

ChocolateWombat · 09/09/2017 10:31

There are a lot of 'fuck off' comments on this thread. These don't seem to be constructive discussion!

ChocolateWombat · 09/09/2017 10:34

'It's not for you to have an opinion'
But people do have an opinion.....perhaps not about individuals, but the issue broadly. And government takes a position with the 24 week ruling etc. Society isn't prepared at all points to say that only the view of the woman herself matters or that she should make the decision with reference to no-one at all.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 09/09/2017 10:36

*It's actually about making sure the woman has adequate support following or before an abortion from a mental health perspective. To suggest everyone walks away after a late period feeling fine is lunacy. We all respond in very different ways to different situations and I can assure you there Is nothing wrong with being mentally unwell.

Nobody has suggested that 'everyone' walks away fine.
Some don't, some do.

Why do you think that my access to an abortion should be delayed because some people may need counselling first?

How draconian.

Mittens1969 · 09/09/2017 10:37

It's always the woman's choice ultimately, I think most of us are agreed on that. But for a lot of us, it's not a decision to be taken lightly, as it is a potential life.

Maybe for some women it is a simple decision in the early stages of pregnancy. It's certainly much better that way.

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