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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be frustrated that it's impossible to have a discussion on abortion ethics....

999 replies

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 19:54

On one side there's those who believe an embryo has fully human rights from conception, and on the other those who believe the foetus has no rights at all until birth.

Both sides seem to put forward their position forcefully and dogmatically as though they're stating the obvious, and anyone who thinks the ethics surrounding it may be a more complex is shouted down, especially by some on the pro-chioice side who seem to view anyone who doesn't agree with their stance as a misogynistic slave of the patriarchy.

Personally, I'm not in either camp and find the ethical questions complex, with this being brought home the other evening when I was reading that Incas didn't regard babies and toddler as having human status until the age of 3-4 (where they had a ceremony to mark this rite of passage) and no longer totally dependent on their mothers and past the most perilous time wrt child mortality. It made me question again my thoughts on when we should a human should acquire rights, and frustrated me that any discussion on this immediately degenerates into a slanging match.

OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 08/09/2017 21:16

So it can be equivalent to an extreme sports enthusiast having an injury as a result, and that being unfortunate and a shame?

grannytomine · 08/09/2017 21:19

That is exactly my position on sex workers. They should not be considered to be committing a crime If you are talking about prostitution it isn't committing a crime, you can sell your body if you want to.

RebelRogue · 08/09/2017 21:27

If your situation is genuine then it would be approved.. its not there to catch people out it's about making women and men think about their actions.

Bullshit! It wouldn't be men appearing in front of the panel,justifying their choice would it?

Batteriesallgone · 08/09/2017 21:28

granny ok. The point has been made repeatedly in the thread that the law is changeable. I was stating my position as to what the law should be, not seeking to clarify what it is. Offering opinion not fact I guess.

MrsHathaway · 08/09/2017 21:31

Hmm. I'm going to have to think about that. Possibly closer to needing to have surgery to correct the injury (the injury being equivalent to the unintended conception).

My gut is saying no but I can't formulate why not.

Batteriesallgone · 08/09/2017 21:31

That's an analogy I considered using, Beauty but didn't want to overstep in case I wasn't in line with Hathaway.

Yes it's like a BMXer coming off their bike - the sport isn't the problem, but the injury is still unfortunate, IYSWIM.

I would never suggest they should be stopped from biking just as I think people should be able to do what they like in their sex lives. Just that having to undergo a medical procedure is unfortunate.

grannytomine · 08/09/2017 21:31

Batteriesallgone well you must be very happy that the law makers agree with you. Lots of people think prostitution is illegal so I was just letting you know that it was all OK.

JacquesHammer · 08/09/2017 21:54

I must admit I am gobsmacked at the post suggesting a woman should face a panel in order to be granted an abortion. What an appalling idea.

The only "genuine" reason that needs to be considered for an abortion is if a woman wants one.

RebelRogue · 08/09/2017 22:00

The only "genuine" reason that needs to be considered for an abortion is if a woman wants one.

Ahh but how would a woman know she's making the right choice without a panel (including at least one man) approving it or not?

Women must know their place,justify their every action, repent, and stop being silly thinking they can decide what happens to their own body. We need to make them "think" !!!

JacquesHammer · 08/09/2017 22:03

Ahh but how would a woman know she's making the right choice without a panel (including at least one man) approving it or not

You are of course right. Hence why the all male panel at my GPs can decide I can't be sterilised

Batteriesallgone · 08/09/2017 23:11

I wonder what the alternative would be if the panel said no abortion? Is the idea that they would try and convince her to carry to term and then have the child adopted to the infertile couple?

Maybe she'd go live with them for the rest of her term. In a totally kind non threatening non Handmaids Tale way Hmm

Or would the idea be to convince her to carry to term and keep the child herself? Maybe it would turn into an education session on housing, benefits, childcare etc etc.

Or maybe they'd just say 'no safe abortion for you!' And turn her out on the streets in the full knowledge she'd be likely to seek a backstreet abortion. Probably hopeful the backstreet abortion would make her infertile so that 'her sort' wouldn't be up before the panel again.

Because if you are going to have a panel decide, you need to know what the alternative to the abortion is, otherwise the having of the panel in the first place is a waste of time.

vdbfamily · 09/09/2017 07:26

I find it interesting that most pro choicers argue that no-one takes the decision to have an abortion lightly and no-one would use it as a form of contraception and yet there are posters on here today saying the opposite 'it is just like a heavy period. .it is akin to falling off your bike' etc. There has been a move away from abortion being used in the most extreme situations (in which in the past, the woman may have attempted back-street) to it being used for convenience. How many of us have friends and family who fell pregnant, were not happy about it but went on to have the baby and are so glad they did. If I think about my family, my mum did not want a 4th and tried all sorts of heavy lifting etc in her pregnancy but my brother clung on and she adores him now and coped. My MIL fell pregnant 3 months after her first and had PND with first but went ahead and had my husband. Again she fell pregnant 10 years later with a 10 and 11 year old...not convenient but she had the baby and now would not be without her. A close friends mum fell pregnant with her 4th 11 years after supposedly completing her family but had the baby and never regretted it. I fell pregnant on a couple of occasions when I did not want to be (think 3 months after new baby) and although I had 2 miscarriages at 12 weeks gestation, I still grieved the loss, despite not wanting to be pregnant. Someone I know found out she was pregnant a few years ago. She had 3 grown up children, was considering divorcing her husband, was working full time in a job she loved and agonised over whether she should have an abortion. She is a Christian and felt it was not right to do so but everthing was telling her this was not convenient,not good for the baby, not the right time etc. She had the baby and says it's the best thing she ever did. She left her husband, her grown up kids were around to help with chilcare and she adores her little girl. The idea of an abortion has been made less shocking deliberately and people are not allowed to talk about it being a baby(How many pregnant women talk about there foetus??) and people lie about it just being a clump of cells/blob of jelly and are also not honest about the methods of abortion.
I agree it may be a necessary evil in some cases, but it should be seen as that and it should be in dire circumstances where it is the only option.
When MN are debating men paying maintenance most women are quick to say that as soon as a man engages in sex, he has to accept that a baby could be the consequence or he should keep his pants on. When it comes to women though we are not allowed to make the same statement and that to me is hypocritical!!

Piewraith · 09/09/2017 07:47

How many of us have friends and family who fell pregnant, were not happy about it but went on to have the baby and are so glad they did.

How many people regret and cannot handle the children that they have - just look around on here and you ll see its a common thing.

christinarossetti · 09/09/2017 07:49

Fine. Don't ever have an abortion then.

And let other women have the same bodily autonomy.

OvariesBeforeBrovaries · 09/09/2017 07:57

When it comes to women though we are not allowed to make the same statement and that to me is hypocritical!!

The consequences of unprotected sex to a man are financial. He'll have to contribute towards the child's upbringing etc, if nothing else.

The consequences to a woman are that she becomes an incubator.

You can't compare the two. When a man has to give up his body for nine months and go through a dangerous, potentially-fatal childbirth, we can accept the two experiences as the same. Until then, there's nothing hypocritical about supporting the right of any woman to have an abortion if she chooses one.

BertrandRussell · 09/09/2017 08:13

"When MN are debating men paying maintenance most women are quick to say that as soon as a man engages in sex, he has to accept that a baby could be the consequence or he should keep his pants on. When it comes to women though we are not allowed to make the same statement and that to me is hypocritical!!"

The point here is that nobody has the right to say what a woman does with her own body, not the state or the man. She gets to choose.

And yes, I do know women who have continued with pregnancies and been glad they did. I also know women who have given babies up for adoption and been haunted by that decision for the rest of their lives. And there are many unhappy and damaged children who are the result of unwanted pregnancy.

mumof2sarah · 09/09/2017 08:18

Personally I don't think I could ever have one, I just feel like once you've conceived, you've made a human. BUT BUT I've never been through anything where I've needed to consider having one either and I think maybe unless you get to that stage you can't say if you definitely would or wouldn't like with anything in life.

I do believe that everyone is entitled to do what they want/feels best and we can't judge others for their choices.

This world is so quick to judge or have an opinion on everyone's else's life instead of just being there. Whether one person agrees with another's choices or not just a "it's your choice and what ever you choose I will try and support you" is all it needs. Raising people up instead of putting them down would probably go away to giving the others the support they didn't think they had x

Dontknowwherethelineis · 09/09/2017 08:25

As pp have said, there are many people with measured views. I am pro-choice.

My sister had an abortion and it was absolutely the best thing for her and I am glad she had it. She was in a bad place and couldn't have coped with a baby (although obviously many women who could cope perfectly well but still choose to have abortions and it is entirely their choice).

However, my mum - who had posed the idea of abortion to my sister in the first place - asked me to help convince my sister (she was in a really very bad place to have a child - taking drugs amongst other things hence the 'convincing' ) - and I refused as I couldn't shake the belief that it was a potential life and I wanted no active involvement in the ending of that potential life. However I was fully supportive when she agreed that it was the best option.
So even my own views are conflicting/slightly contradictory and I - like many others - certainly don't think my opinion is the blindingly obvious 'right' one.

NotACleverName · 09/09/2017 08:27

How can I have manly ideas by saying that an abortion should be approved by a group of people in a panel or a jury what the hell is not to like about that.
If your situation is genuine then it would be approved.. its not there to catch people out it's about making women and men think about their actions.

This is legitimately one of the worst things I've ever read on MN. How on earth can you think that this is in any way reasonable? Silly little wimmins, they must not know their own minds and need others [read: men] to make a decision for them.

twofingerstoEverything · 09/09/2017 08:35

I believe and would like it if you had to go before a panel in order to obtain the rights to have an abortion. The panel should include a mother who has had one, a couple who can't conceive, a doctor, a nurse and maybe some sort of mental health expert?

This absolutely beggars belief.

BertrandRussell · 09/09/2017 08:39

What happens if the panel says no?

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 09/09/2017 09:05

It was the suggestion that all pro-abortion people are warm and cuddly whilst all anti-abortion people are cold and horrid that I think is crap. You just can't make glib statements like this and expect to go unchallenged

Ironically the comment you referred to about thinking pro-choice people being more receptive & sympathetic to someone who'd had an abortion was made in direct response to a poster stating that pro-lifers are more empathetic wrt to people who've had abortions and are upset about it.

You're right - glib statements like that cannot go unchallenged, so I look forward to you pulling up the poster that suggested pro-abortion people are cold & horrid, and pro-lifers are warm & cuddly.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 09/09/2017 09:14

If your situation is genuine then it would be approved.. its not there to catch people out it's about making women and men think about their actions.

Lol @ 'genuine' & 'approved' 😂

@mowgeli - do you have a rough idea of what would be regarded as 'genuine' or what sort of situations would not be 'approved'?

Mittens1969 · 09/09/2017 09:18

How can I have manly ideas by saying that an abortion should be approved by a group of people in a panel or a jury what the hell is not to like about that.
If your situation is genuine then it would be approved.. its not there to catch people out it's about making women and men think about their actions.**^^

The poster who suggested this has hidden the thread, we're all agreed that her view is abhorrent. Total lunacy anyway! As if there would be an infertile couple who would even want to be on such a panel, or someone who has had an abortion.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 09/09/2017 09:22

We are talking about ending a potential life here and it is not a decision to be made lightly.

You're making the mistake of believing it's a heavy decision for all women.

Realising your period is a couple of days late, when you're usually bang on time - doing a test & then going straight to the doctor can mean that you are taking the pills at just a few weeks pregnant.

Not a weighty decision or thought of a potential life that may be etc in many, many women's heads at that point - just 'I don't want to be pregnant, stop the pregnancy'.