Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be frustrated that it's impossible to have a discussion on abortion ethics....

999 replies

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 19:54

On one side there's those who believe an embryo has fully human rights from conception, and on the other those who believe the foetus has no rights at all until birth.

Both sides seem to put forward their position forcefully and dogmatically as though they're stating the obvious, and anyone who thinks the ethics surrounding it may be a more complex is shouted down, especially by some on the pro-chioice side who seem to view anyone who doesn't agree with their stance as a misogynistic slave of the patriarchy.

Personally, I'm not in either camp and find the ethical questions complex, with this being brought home the other evening when I was reading that Incas didn't regard babies and toddler as having human status until the age of 3-4 (where they had a ceremony to mark this rite of passage) and no longer totally dependent on their mothers and past the most perilous time wrt child mortality. It made me question again my thoughts on when we should a human should acquire rights, and frustrated me that any discussion on this immediately degenerates into a slanging match.

OP posts:
Original poster
coconuttella · 07/09/2017 22:51

Assassinated

The point of this thread was to try and discuss the rights and wrongs of abortion, as I'm personally unsure regarding its ethics.... I'm neither fully pro-choice or fully pro-life. However, if I think an argument is a poor one that hinders rather than help that discussion, and is designed principally to shut down that discussion (as the "I have my views, you have yours, so get keep your opinions to yourself) I'll say so.

OP posts:
Lovingmybear2 · 07/09/2017 22:54

Yes because clearly murdering a 3 year old is akin to having an abortion. Jesus Christ

Still waiting for the list of those willing to foster or adopt unwanted babies???

coconut surely you are?

Lovingmybear2 · 07/09/2017 22:58

ii am neither fully pro choice or fully
Pro life Hmm

Well everyone is pro life in an ideal world arnt they?

But unfortunately while you and others while away their down time discussing arbitsty bollocks there's a big mean old world out there where some women are pregnant and don't want to be.

So shall we let them decide what's best for them and their families and lives aye! Revolutionary stiff

Lovingmybear2 · 07/09/2017 23:00

Stuff.

And still waiting for the list of names of those pro restrictive abortion rights that want to foster or adopt.

AssassinatedBeauty · 07/09/2017 23:02

Could you explain why you think it's a poor argument rather than just state it, and claim the point being made is mad?

The reason doctors etc are required to keep babies alive in NICU is because that's what they've agreed to do and signed up for. It's their job. They want to do it. If they change their minds and believe that those babies shouldn't be treated then they can resign. No one will compel them to continue working there against their will. A woman who no longer wants to be pregnant may not be afforded the same option if she can't procure a legal abortion. She will be compelled to continue the pregnancy and then either go through the adoption process or care for the child herself.

Original poster
coconuttella · 07/09/2017 23:03

Yes because clearly murdering a 3 year old is akin to having an abortion.

Are you wilfully trying to misunderstand my point?! I was never arguing they were equivalent! It was an analogy to demonstrate that one favoured pro-choice argument doesn't really work...

OP posts:
Lovingmybear2 · 07/09/2017 23:05

ollivander I missed your post until now so very very sorry that must be so difficult for you lovely. I hope you have love and support in your life now. We all make decisions for the time we are in. Don't be hard on yourself Flowers

Original poster
coconuttella · 07/09/2017 23:06

And still waiting for the list of names of those pro restrictive abortion rights that want to foster or adopt.

I've been a foster parent and would be willing to adopt... There's no shortage of would be parents for babies though. It's older children where there are issues.

OP posts:
Lovingmybear2 · 07/09/2017 23:13

Not misunderstanding you.

You belive the foetus has rights, rights equivalent to those of a 3 year old child?

I don't.

However my point is it's irrelevant what you or I think but it's for the pregnant woman to decide what happens to the foetus in her body.

Not me and not you. Just her.

You have been a foster parent and are willing to adopt? Good for you.

You do realise though that those older children stuck in foster care or children's homes were babies once?

Obviously not a big queue to adopt them was there.

Mumof56 · 07/09/2017 23:19

It makes you a bit of a hypocrite though. You want these kids to be born, but you aren't willing to put your money where your mouth is and actually do something that helps these kids

How many pregnant women who feel they have no choice to abort due to homelessness have you living in your house? It makes you a bit of a hippocrite if you have none. You say you are pro choice but when it comes to putting your hand in your pocket to enable them to make a choice...you leave it to someone else.

Women in poverty who abort because they can't afford a child, How many of them are you funding?

If you're pro-choice you should be enabling them to have a choi've. Unless the only choice they have is to abort?

Lovingmybear2 · 07/09/2017 23:22

Yes I do think lots of anti abortion campaigners ( Never use pro life because who isn't in an ideal world)
Are also pro welfare cuts!

Yes Reece cock face Mogg twats like you

RosemaryHoight · 07/09/2017 23:26

Enforcing a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy and birth is barbaric.

The poor girl who had three terminations by fourteen, do you not think she was a victim of child abuse? Even in retrospect?

Lovingmybear2 · 07/09/2017 23:58

RebelRogue indeed. Not my problem

AssassinatedBeauty · 08/09/2017 00:05

I doubt there will ever be agreement on the human rights status of an embryo/foetus/baby in utero. It's not something that is just a matter of logical argument, where those with the best argument will win the debate. Religion and emotion are major factors in what people think.

For me, an embryo/foetus/baby doesn't have human rights as it isn't yet fully human, until birth as per the current legal definition. My reasoning for that is due to the fact that it is totally dependent on the mother, totally within the mother's body and not yet an independent entity. The mother is a person and has full human rights, and therefore her wishes must be respected. There's no conflict of human rights between the mother and the embryo/foetus/baby, because one is a person and one is not (yet).

If an embryo/foetus/baby is considered to have human rights and should be considered fully a person then I think that people who believe that should be clear that this would also have an impact beyond abortion. Women would be prosecuted for harming their baby if they knowingly engage in activities that harm the foetus, like binge drinking. They will have committed an assault on the embryo/foetus/baby. Abortion would be murder and women would be prosecuted for it and have the same consequences as murder.

RosemaryHoight · 08/09/2017 00:34

I think that men, before sex should have to go before a panel, consisting of families who don't receive child maintenance, your local priest, a nurse and a doctor. If he can't pass the panel he should not be permitted to have sex with a woman.

OlennasWimple · 08/09/2017 00:34

If an embryo/foetus/baby is considered to have human rights and should be considered fully a person then I think that people who believe that should be clear that this would also have an impact beyond abortion

I am prepared to say that I am someone who is stuck in the grey area on this one (like the majority of pp, I would suggest?). The labour that turned my foetus into a baby was less than an hour - I find it hard to imagine that had it been an induced labour of an aborted foetus it would have been any faster. He was 36 weeks, tiny but didn't need resuscitation or special care other than an extra worm cot and some tube feeding to stop him losing any body weight. I would venture that if he had been born somewhere without SCBU he would still have survived fine (I know how lucky we are).

My pre-term baby is the reason I cannot in all consciousness support abortion on demand to term. I know that the "as early as possible, as late as necessary" mantra is logical and consistent, but I just can't support a position that would enable someone to decide that they didn't want to keep a baby such as my DC. (I know that women don't decide to abort on a whim, I really do. But just because very few people might do something doesn't mean that it is acceptable for anyone to be able to do it)

I also admit that I am in two minds about a positive impact that recognising the rights of a foetus could have, such as the criminal justice system being able to punish someone who brings about the death of a pregnant woman or who causes her to miscarry in addition to other charges that they may be able to bring. For example, one of the Grenfell Tower victims lost her baby following the fire, whilst one of the people killed by the IRA bomb in Omagh was pregnant with twins.

Lovingmybear2 · 08/09/2017 00:36

I think in some American states that is already happening.

OlennasWimple · 08/09/2017 00:36

Oh, as well as having had a prem baby, I'm also an adoptive mother (and have miscarried), so does that mean that I get to sit on the ghastly panel suggested upthread?

Lovingmybear2 · 08/09/2017 00:46

olennnas

There's a lot of i s in you post. Its great that you and your babies are fine but it's not about you! Or me!

I think it's quite possible for the bastard who planted the omah bomb to be convicted of murder of unborn twins as he had no right to end the life of the mother of the twins or the twins themselves.

That was an evil crime which I hope you are not comparing with a woman's right to her bodily autonomy?

It's equally possible to support a pregnant woman in her choices of her pregnancy outcome.

OlennasWimple · 08/09/2017 01:05

I think it's quite possible for the bastard who planted the omah bomb to be convicted of murder of unborn twins as he had no right to end the life of the mother of the twins or the twins themselves.

No, it isn't - because the law doesn't recognise them as legal entities until birth. They don't even feature in the official statistics

That was an evil crime which I hope you are not comparing with a woman's right to her bodily autonomy?

I'm not sure where you got that from my post Confused I was saying that one upside in regarding a foetus as a legal entity was that it would provide the ability for people who commit despicable deeds to be held to account for actions that led to the death of what would almost certainly have been a normal, healthy baby

bridgetoc · 08/09/2017 01:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SerfTerf · 08/09/2017 01:17

24 week old babies aren't IN wombs bridge so you can't have seen any such thing.

BoomBoomsCousin · 08/09/2017 01:37

OP the "you make your choice, I'll make mine" argument works even if you believe fetuses have full personhood if you are looking at the right of the woman to her own body. In that case it doesn't matter that the fetus has rights, it is up to an individual if they are prepared to allow another to use their body to sustain life. In that case it is up to the individual conscience of the woman. You might find what they do despicable and a choice you would not make, but it is their choice, not yours or anyone else's.

You madam the comparison at one point of the risk to life of having a child compared with the risk to life of driving someone who needed it to hospital - and while I think that vastly under represents what is asked of a woman for the duration of pregnancy as an analogy it does bring up the question - why don't we require people to help out others? And I think the reason for that, as it should be with abortion, is because you are never in that person's shoes when the decision is made and you do not have to live with the consequences. And yes, there will be some selfish people out their who could have saved a life, but the consequence of criminalizing that right to say no is to tell people they are not in charge of their lives in a very fundamental way, even more so with abortion where you are talking about physical autonomy.

Also, if you ban abortion and more unwanted babies are born, there will be a few more babies up for adoption (especially with the two baby benefits limit) but we already know that unless they are coerced into it, very few women will give up their babies for adoption, even if they did not want to be pregnant. What we will see is an increase in cases of abuse and older children being taken from their parents after abuse and neglect. So what we will need is more people prepared to take on difficult fostering cases.

BoomBoomsCousin · 08/09/2017 01:38
  • You make the comparison, not madam!
Piewraith · 08/09/2017 02:54

You madam the comparison at one point of the risk to life of having a child compared with the risk to life of driving someone who needed it to hospital - and while I think that vastly under represents what is asked of a woman for the duration of pregnancy as an analogy

Exactly, the whole responsibilty to save someone's life only applies if there is little or no risk to yourself, and that includes pain and disability, not just death. Imagine if you were required to go through something as agonising and traumatic as giving birth to save someone's life. Wouldn't happen! Currently you can't even be forced to give blood (a tiny pinprick of pain). But you can be forced literally to rip your own vagina in half.

Swipe left for the next trending thread