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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be frustrated that it's impossible to have a discussion on abortion ethics....

999 replies

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 19:54

On one side there's those who believe an embryo has fully human rights from conception, and on the other those who believe the foetus has no rights at all until birth.

Both sides seem to put forward their position forcefully and dogmatically as though they're stating the obvious, and anyone who thinks the ethics surrounding it may be a more complex is shouted down, especially by some on the pro-chioice side who seem to view anyone who doesn't agree with their stance as a misogynistic slave of the patriarchy.

Personally, I'm not in either camp and find the ethical questions complex, with this being brought home the other evening when I was reading that Incas didn't regard babies and toddler as having human status until the age of 3-4 (where they had a ceremony to mark this rite of passage) and no longer totally dependent on their mothers and past the most perilous time wrt child mortality. It made me question again my thoughts on when we should a human should acquire rights, and frustrated me that any discussion on this immediately degenerates into a slanging match.

OP posts:
birdsdestiny · 07/09/2017 21:08

Iylasmam, that is horrific, to my shame I was not aware of that.

OlennasWimple · 07/09/2017 21:08

So your in favour of restricting abortion for everyone to protect the minority who might be coerced?

I didn't say that - I said it's a concern, and one that we ought to recognise and consider.

Ollivander84 · 07/09/2017 21:09

I had one. Contraception failed, I work F/T, can't afford a child or childcare. Not many options because if I had the child, it would have had to go to adoption
I was absolutely heartbroken, my heart knew I wanted the baby the minute I saw the positive test, I cried at the scans I had and was diagnosed with antenatal depression and PTSD afterwards. But I don't have the money to support a child

MrsHathaway · 07/09/2017 21:15

So giving one baby dependent on life support human rights because s/he is in an incubator for several months in a paediatric ICU should mean the baby in utero has the same rights, surely?

Legally, no, and we've discussed the importance of a legal line in the sand.

But also practically no. A baby in an incubator needs a fuckton of care but no particular individual is obliged to provide it. Keeping that baby alive in utero obliges the uterus-owner to provide a level of care that only she can provide.

Why is that difficult to understand?

JSAMJ · 07/09/2017 21:15

Thanks Lovingmybear2. I only posted it because late terminations were discussed. No one would easily have a late termination. In my friends case it dragged on as she waited for a cardiologist appointment, then an mri, then 2nd opinions, then ethics committee etc. There were no signs until the 20 week scan and referrals aren't instant. The prognosis was a severe neuromuscular disease. Her child would have been 6 now.

JSAMJ · 07/09/2017 21:30

Ollivander84. I'm sorry. xx

Motheroffourdragons · 07/09/2017 21:31

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

MrsHathaway · 07/09/2017 21:37

I think I'm right in saying babies grow more quickly in utero than after they're born, so that's one difference.

I see what you mean that he's vulnerable and dependent whether he's in utero or a goldfish bowl on SCBU. But there's a significant difference for his mother and her rights matter.

lylasmam2012 · 07/09/2017 21:39

A baby in my womb is relying on my body to survive, is restricting my life, the things I can and cannot do. A baby at the same gestation outside a womb is relying on machinery and doctors and nurses, and isn't reliant on any one individual person.

grannytomine · 07/09/2017 21:50

Don't like abortion? Don't have one. But don't impose your values on other people That's perfectly reasonable but I think some people object to funding other people's choices, I'm thinking of tax payers who are anti abortion but have to fund them.

I'm old enough to remember the death penalty, I didn't want it to be done in my name but because of democracy we were all part of it and people might feel like that about abortion. Personally I wouldn't have an abortion but I have supported young members of staff who decided to end a pregnancy as I felt it was the right thing to do but I understand some people wouldn't feel comfortable doing that.

Personally I've not got a settled opinion on this but think that rights develop as a baby develops, and believe that an embryo that has yet to implant in a womb should be treated very differently from a baby at 39 weeks Yes I can see your point because they are very different.

Sometimes it is hard to unpick it all so I do understand what the OP means.

grannytomine · 07/09/2017 21:53

Ollivander84 that must have been so hard for you, I hope you are OK.

Motheroffourdragons · 07/09/2017 21:57

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

MrsHathaway · 07/09/2017 22:01

I want nobody to ever have an abortion ever.

Because I want nobody to ever need an abortion ever. No fetal abnormalities incompatible with life. No rape or coercion. No contraception failures. No poverty.

JSAMJ · 07/09/2017 22:05

MrsHathaway. I think you've summed it up really well.

MaisyPops · 07/09/2017 22:18

I want nobody to ever have an abortion ever.
Because I want nobody to everneedan abortion ever. No fetal abnormalities incompatible with life. No rape or coercion. No contraception failures. No poverty
Well said. I would love it if we didn't need to have abortion, but we do.
And as long as there is a need then I support the right of women to access safe health care and their freedom to choose either way.

ghostyslovesheets · 07/09/2017 22:22

exactly Mrs Hathaway - until then ...I remain pro abortion

Original poster
coconuttella · 07/09/2017 22:23

Don't like abortion? Don't have one. But don't impose your values on other people

This argument simply doesn't work if someone believes that a foetus has some levels of human rights. Imagine if someone believed that it was ok to kill their children up to the age of three, and that you should just keep your personal views on the matter to yourself!

OP posts:
Soci · 07/09/2017 22:25

I agree with Motheroffourdragons and MrsHathaway. In the meantime, it is important that women have a safe and legal way of terminating a pregnancy when needed/wanted.

ghostyslovesheets · 07/09/2017 22:25

are you opposed to IVF Coconut? The MAP? The Copper Coil?

blueberrypie0112 · 07/09/2017 22:32

Coconut, seriously? This isn't a black and white world, never was so why bring up murder of children in the picture.

Original poster
coconuttella · 07/09/2017 22:35

A baby in my womb is relying on my body to survive, is restricting my life, the things I can and cannot do. A baby at the same gestation outside a womb is relying on machinery and doctors and nurses, and isn't reliant on any one individual person.

So if someone's life is entirely dependent on you, you have the right to cut that dependency and end their life? But if that life is dependent on a range of people, thise people should do all in our power to preserve and protect that life.... This is the ethics of the madhouse!

OP posts:
Original poster
coconuttella · 07/09/2017 22:40

are you opposed to IVF Coconut? The MAP? The Copper Coil?

No. I'm merely arguing that this line of argument is a very poor one.

OP posts:
Original poster
coconuttella · 07/09/2017 22:43

Coconut, seriously? This isn't a black and white world, never was so why bring up murder of children in the picture.

You're missing the point... If someone believes that a foetus has human rights, then the argument that "you make your choice, I'll make mine" when it comes to abortion doesn't really work. The point of the analogy was to illustrate why it doesn't work. There are sound arguments for abortion, but that really one of them.

OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 07/09/2017 22:44

@coconuttella you're presumably deliberately concealing what your personal opinions are on this? Wondering why?

What are your personal ethics in relation to this, and are they always totally logically consistent?

ghostyslovesheets · 07/09/2017 22:45

ah so you are playing with us all - nice one