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to think we no longer live in a Christian country

926 replies

orlantina · 04/09/2017 21:41

More than 53% of people have no faith - according to a recent survey.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41150792

That figure changes to 71% amongst 18-25 yr olds.

It surveyed 3000 adults - so it would be interesting to look behind the stats but it seems that more than half the country have no religion.

Christianity is still probably the most common religion out there.

Should this have implications for areas of national life?

OP posts:
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Fresh8008 · 08/09/2017 23:46

There's some evidence to suggest that it is possible a man called Jesus existed and preached and was crucified

Yes that's better lol Grin There is some evidence that some people called Jesus did exist, it was a very common name. Evidence lots of people preached lots of stuff all the time and lots of people were crucified.

PacificDogwod · 08/09/2017 23:49
Blush

It's often easier just to agree that, yes, he existed, but that does not give credence to anything else IYKWIM. It's a lazy shorthand.

CardinalSin · 09/09/2017 00:04

There's some evidence to suggest that it is possible a man called Jesus existed and preached and was crucified.

Actually, outside of the bible (not the most reliable of sources), there's not a single shred...

orlantina · 09/09/2017 08:25

Evidence lots of people preached lots of stuff all the time and lots of people were crucified

As Douglas Adams says in Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy

“And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, a girl sitting on her own in a small café in Rickmansworth suddenly realized what it was that had been going wrong all this time, and she finally knew how the world could be made a good and happy place. This time it was right, it would work, and no one would have to get nailed to anything.”

I think what Jesus preached was great. No issue with that.

But was he the Son of God - or just someone who had lots to say?

I wonder what he thought of 'his Dad' - and all of the Old Testament laws that have been used by the Church since then.

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Iamahppy · 09/09/2017 09:11

It has always interested me that actually the vast majority of the rules and regulations that the Christian church is built on are based on the teachings and letters of Paul.

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"

Surely an even better trick would have been to start an evil misogynistic religious cult that would perpetuate for millennia creating misery wherever it took root Grin

pointythings · 09/09/2017 09:20

Catholism is the only true religion

And there lies the problem - all the different clubs make that claim.

And boy, didn't the Catholic Church let the Cathars (who were utterly non-violent and did no-one any harm) know all about that...

themueslicamel · 09/09/2017 09:37

Think Gandhi nailed it

to think we no longer live in a Christian country
ErrolTheDragon · 09/09/2017 09:42

Along with his answer to 'what do you think of western civilisation?' - 'I think it would be a very good idea'.Grin

orlantina · 09/09/2017 09:42

Indeed he did.

The people who say we are a Christian country with Christian values are the ones who Christ would be challenging on their behaviours if he was alive today.

See Cameron, Farage, the Daily Mail, Theresa May as examples. Proud of our 'Christian heritage;, decidely UnChristlike in their behaviours.

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ErrolTheDragon · 09/09/2017 10:04

Interesting piece by Janice Turner in the Times this morning - not sure if I can link...www.thetimes.co.uk/article/politics-and-religion-are-a-dangerous-mix-9z5pshp8c?shareToken=aabdde05e701cd62f4eba8b5c5911d3d

PacificDogwod · 09/09/2017 10:14

Jesus (assuming he existed Grin) was a son of god - son of god being the description pious Jews of the time used for themselves. It simply meant 'Follower of Judaism' and was too all that social.

What is said to have preached (see how careful I am now? Wink) are great ideas - shame that humans as a whole are not ready for a message of peace and love and loving thy enemy.
I'm with Gandhi; it would be a great idea.

themueslicamel · 09/09/2017 10:17

I have no time for any religion, Islam worries me greatly at the moment but Christianity has to one of the worst historically.

If you could a lives ruined/pints of blood spilt per cult bar chart I think it would be at, or near the top.

Leaders pretend to be religious, as nothing worries them more than the lower classes thinking for themselves.

And so the religious now squeak that "their " values are under attack.

The utter hypocrisy is breathtaking.

Man created god in his own image, but we can put this childish comfort blanket down now, we just don't need it.

PacificDogwod · 09/09/2017 10:30

If you could a lives ruined/pints of blood spilt per cult bar chart I think it would be at, or near the top

Actually, that would be a very interesting chart.

Extreme Islamism worries me too, but then all extreme views are fucking scary.
Christianity has maybe moved on a bit from the Spanish Inquisition and killing whole peoples while looking for the Holy Grail Hmm, but it did go through the Enlightenment and Renaissance which has brought some semblance of rational thinking to many aspects of how we now live.
Islam has never had that - straight from the Middle Ages to the 21 Century. Combine that with horrific errors of judgement having been made in world politics wrt the Middle East and the Russian involvement in Afghanistan + masses of young men with v little perspective and you have a ready breeding ground for radicals who are prepared to do almost anything at all Sad

orlantina · 09/09/2017 10:32

which has brought some semblance of rational thinking to many aspects of how we now live

There do seem to be some Christians in parts of Africa (US missionaries) who seem to be at the more extreme end of their views.

The enlightenment didn't reach everyone.

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/18/us-evangelicals-africa-charity-missionaries-homosexuality

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onecrazycook · 09/09/2017 10:36

We just live in a country. End of story

toiletanger · 09/09/2017 10:42

I'm sure I remember reading that a lot of the views now considered essential to Christianity weren't actually there from the start and have developed over time e.g. Early Christians didn't believe in a virgin birth or in the divinity of Jesus

Cailleach666 · 09/09/2017 13:20

onecrazycook

Must have taken a lot of deep thinking to come up with that one.

Fresh8008 · 09/09/2017 13:28

But without Jesus you are only existing in your country. You don't start living until you are saved.

themueslicamel · 09/09/2017 13:52

Fresh

Let me guess, your church can "save" me!

Hmm
themueslicamel · 09/09/2017 13:54

God in all of its forms can go and do one quite frankly........

pointythings · 09/09/2017 14:27

mueslicamel, read Fresh's posts - she is on the sceptics' side of this debate.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 09/09/2017 14:37

Unfortunately, the Old Testament rules seem to still heavily influence Christian thought - moral behaviour. The way women are treated, LGBT people, unmarried families etc - how much of that's derived from the Old Testament

For a man of his time, Jesus was incredibly feminist! And the "OldTestament Rules" that you complain about aren't God's rules (those are the commandments), they are the interpretations of those rules imposed by a patriarchal society.

Women had few rights because they were regarded as beasts of burden and as breeding machines (and still are in many areas of the Far and Middle East).

Sons were preferred because when they married, their wives came into their family - providing the man's parents with extra help, and someone to look after them in their old age - few ancient families raised more than one daughter, unless they were wealthy. You don't raise daughters to look after someone else. Wealthy families married daughters into similar families to increase influence and consolidate power. Poorer families raised one or two daughters (usually) as servants within the family or to sell into marriage (and sometimes slavery or prostitiution).

Female "virtue" was important because a man needed to be certain that the children he was raising were his.

As far as I am aware, there is nothing regarding lesbianism in either the Old or New Testaments (please give me the appropriate reference if I am wrong), but homosexuality was frowned upon because in an era of high infant mortality, war and starvation, men who did not want to have sexual relations with women wouldn't increase the family. This made the tribe weaker and more vulnerable to attack from other tribes or nations (another reason for wanting sons - protection/aggression).

Additionally, in the Jewish faith, it was (and as I understand still is) believed that a person never really dies until they are no longer remembered - this is why genealogy lists are so important. Keeping the name alive keeps the person "alive".

Not to have children was also considered an indication that you weren't favoured by God - you were "bad luck" (or at least women were, as they were considered the ones responsible for conception - men, of course, were always fertile).

Nowhere in the 10 Commandments is there anything that says women are second class citizens, or that homosexuality is wrong. NOWHERE.

We are all as God made us and that includes our sexuality We are as we are and there is nothing shameful in being gay or bi- any more than there is in being straight.

Those Christians who frown on homosexuality are not following God's instructions at all. Read the Gospels. Jesus said very little about sex - hardly anything, and what he did say amounted to "Be faithful when you have committed yourself to a relationship, respect the other person and treat them well - and don't judge other people's morals unless your own are squeaky clean - and they won't be, so don't judge, full stop."

Jesus, did say a lot about money, and about power, and I concede that many people who are purportedly Christian seem to gloss over this because it suits them to do so. (Not me - I don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of . . . ). Grin

pointythings · 09/09/2017 15:14

Schadenfreude see, you're the kind of person who meets the definition of what I as an atheist feel a Christian should profess to be. But unfortunately it isn't people like you who have determined the 'Christian' culture some people on here want to defend - the one that chooses to oppress women, persecute people of other faiths and different sexuality, live with an 'us and them' mindset. And because of that I'm of the opinion that I want the move towards a secular society to continue apace.

Brahumbug · 09/09/2017 15:40

Will one of those who thinks that the bible is a pretty good guide to how to live your life explain how they can justify owning another human being as property, as clearly advocated in your so called 'good book '

JustAnotherPoster00 · 09/09/2017 16:47

Nowhere in the 10 Commandments is there anything that says women are second class citizens, or that homosexuality is wrong. NOWHERE.

The rest of the bible had plenty to say on it though Hmm

Jesus said very little about sex

He in a round about way condemned homosexuality. Correct me if I'm wrong I think it was in Mathew when the pharisees asked jesus about divorce and he said something like 'Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.

A lot of the interpretation of the bible tries to fit into current societies 'norms' and rightly so, if it was truly the inspired word of god then by definition youre not following the teachings of the bible and therefore forfeit your way into heaven, so better get your stones ready if you see anyone wearing wool and cotton at the same time.

Why cant people see that there is nothing worth teaching out of that awful and outdated book that a good and moral person already knows, if all that stops you from doing evil things is the threat of hell then I think you need more help than a bronze age tribal book can teach you

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