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Original poster

to think we no longer live in a Christian country

926 replies

orlantina · 04/09/2017 21:41

More than 53% of people have no faith - according to a recent survey.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41150792

That figure changes to 71% amongst 18-25 yr olds.

It surveyed 3000 adults - so it would be interesting to look behind the stats but it seems that more than half the country have no religion.

Christianity is still probably the most common religion out there.

Should this have implications for areas of national life?

OP posts:
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BusyBeez99 · 08/09/2017 07:29

As soon as it's 100% the better. I've heard people praying that the Hurricane moves direction. What a pile of crap. It's ain't gonna move because it's an act of nature and there isn't anyone who can move it - there's no man in the sky

Original poster
orlantina · 08/09/2017 07:36

Kids fighting in the classrooms, unruly behaviour, cheeky to the teachers, bad language. I can't help but see the connection

In the good old days, pupils who behaved like that were beaten in schools - including Church schools, caned and slippered. All by people of faith who believed in physical punishment and in doing "the right thing or they will go to hell"

Dave Allen on God and school and punishment.

OP posts:
Original poster
orlantina · 08/09/2017 07:46

Religion and the fear of going to Hell and eternal punishment has been used to control people for ages.

It started in the classroom and continued through the centuries with the control the Church had - through the pulpit and the King. Men were the ones in control, the Bible was only accessible to people who could read Latin before it got translated and if you were not Church of England in this country, you faced a lot of discrimination - and if you were Catholic...Until the Monarch changed and then people of other denominations changed.

As people have become more informed and less deferential, the power of the Church and the control over people the Church has has waned.

That's a good thing. The Church does a lot of good in the community and can act as an institution which can question what the Government is doing. It should be separate to the State.

It's a good thing that many people can't be controlled by a fear of Hell anymore. It's a shame that religious missionaries are going to other countries and spreading such fear there - a promise of eternal salvation if you behave well or eternal punishment and damnation if you misbehave.

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pointythings · 08/09/2017 07:58

There have always been unruly kids. Anecdotally in my DDs' classes they tend to be the ones from very conservative families. The worst one is a JW . Go figure.

I note that the implication that you need religion to have good morals is present in some people on this thread. People, it's bollocks.

Original poster
orlantina · 08/09/2017 08:08

There are religious people with power who believe that HIV is a punishment from God, Ebola is a punishment from God and that hurricanes and natural disasters are a a punishment from God,

And we all know what the Bible says about treating people who God has punished, don't we? The lessons at school taught us that - and no doubt there are preachers who go on about such lessons when teaching moral behaviour.

Funnily enough, some of those countries have the death enalty or jail time for people who they think are sinners.

The UK only got rid of prison for gay people 50 years ago. No doubt some people on here probably think that was a mistake and shows s decline in moral standards.

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MysticalRose · 08/09/2017 08:56

This country was brought out of the dark ages by Christianity and while there is some semblance of civilisation present it will remain Christian. I wonder how many of you realise your ancestors would have been wiped out centuries ago if it wasn't for Christianity. So easy to roll out the clichéd attacks but it just shows how little is known about Christianity.

Ontopofthesunset · 08/09/2017 08:59

But there were lots of countries that developed advanced civilisations without being Christian - then ancient Greeks and Romans for a start, China, Japan.... Christianity is an interesting historical fact and this country may have benefited greatly from it, but it doesn't mean that the Church is relevant in modern society. People are free to believe what they want, so that doesn't mean abolishing religion or the C of E. This thread is primarily about disestablishment.

spanielsgaze · 08/09/2017 09:51

There have always been unruly children
Of course, but NOTHING on the scale it is now. My dgc tell me a lot. Kids fighting (unprovoked attacks amongst pupils), refusal to do as teacher says, outright refusals to do detentions, swearing at teachers, it's appalling, and i know that teachers have come under attack at some schools. This kind of stuff NEVER went on years ago.
Get rid of Christianity at your peril, and you don't know what will come along to replace it.

Btw China is hardly a role model for countries that flourished without Christianity, their human rights record is appalling. The nightmarish cultural revolution wasn't long ago. I'm grateful to live in a Christian country, it's not oerfect but it's a damn sight better than many other countries.

prh47bridge · 08/09/2017 10:17

But there were lots of countries that developed advanced civilisations without being Christian

True but they did not share our moral standards. Greeks, Romans, etc. did not think that all human lives are of equal value, nor did they think that it is nobler to suffer than to inflict suffering. Those values are derived from the Judeo-Christian tradition. We are so familiar with the crucifixion narrative that we have lost sight of just how shocking it was when Christianity emerged. Before then it was deities that inflicted suffering and death on humans. They weren't tortured and killed by humans.

pointythings · 08/09/2017 10:37

The idea that Christianity rescued us from the Dark Ages is sad and hilarious. Atrocities by the Church persisted long after the start of the Renaissance.

I don't think anyone is holding up China as a role model here so that is a straw man.

The argument seems to be that without religion, you cannot have a decent moral society. I would argue that having laws, rules and common morality are survival traits at a societal level. Do we really think that by removing state religion, we will suddenly abandon everything we have built up.so far? We can acknowledge the historical roots of our societal values without wanting to.perpetuate all aspects of those roots.

And spaniel it sounds as if your dgs' school.has a major discipline problem. Not good. But that cannot be extrapolated to all schools. Not can it be remedied by religion.

spanielsgaze · 08/09/2017 10:45

pointythings just up thread, ontipos post, mentioned China as one of the countries that flourished without Christianity.. Do we really think that by removing state religion, we will suddenly abandon everythinge have built up.so far?
You mean built up on the strengths of Christianity, we have a good starting point then don't we. Damn those Christians for all those good things they gave us.

Ontopofthesunset · 08/09/2017 10:46

Firstly, I wasn't holding up any of those societies as perfect. Secondly, there were definitely strong moral codes in many non-Christian societies. They may have not been exactly the same as Christian morals, but you only need to read the writings of ancient Greek philosphers and Roman generals and politicians to know they weren't living in a moral vacuum. People obeyed laws, there was a judicial system, there were codes of honour etc.

And it's specious to argue that Christianity believed in equality when the Christian church and Christian peoples have not historically acted as though all lives were of equal value - feudalism, slavery, workhouses all flourished under Christianity. How different is burning Catholics or Protestants at the stake from lions going after Christians?

spanielsgaze · 08/09/2017 10:50

I didn't say religion was the magic answer, but i can clearly see a pattern, Christian values slowly eroding away, children lacking moral ethics, and it's not just my dgcs school, across the country, low moral in teachers, often because of unruly out of control kids.

spanielsgaze · 08/09/2017 10:55

Over 60 countries benefit from Christian Aid, regardless of race or religion so much good is done for people suffering in war torn countries and disaster zones. No other religious organisation does what CA does. Christianity on the whole is a force for good in the world. Does a lot more for mankind than any other religion.

araiwa · 08/09/2017 11:00

Medecin sans frontieres works in 71 countries and are not religious in any way. They spend their time and money helping people. Not a single penny or second goes on bibles , on building churches or preaching or praying

araiwa · 08/09/2017 11:01

And what are these Christian values we have lost or are losing?

CommonFishDiseases · 08/09/2017 11:03

Do you think people have become more spiritual than religious now, maybe? For example looking for spiritual experiences rather than (what they might consider) empty rituals? I know loads of people who are Christian but seek a more relational rather than ritualistic faith... That could be much more satisfying to people?

Badcat666 · 08/09/2017 11:04

I was bought up in a non religious household and my moral compass is excellent.

I don't judge people by their religion or sexual preferences. I will only dislike someone if they are an arsehole.

I don't believe in heaven or hell so I'm nice because to me it's the best way to be, not so I can sit on a fluffy cloud when I snuff it.

I'd have been burnt at the stack in ye olde Christian days due to my cat collection and books on old herb remedies.

Thankfully we don't live in a "Christian" country anymore or every week they would be a public burning somewhere Grin

CardinalSin · 08/09/2017 11:06

I think it's actually more true to say that we got out of the dark ages in spite of the church...

MysticalRose · 08/09/2017 11:15

Then Cardinal you don't know your own country's history.

Badcat you obviously haven't come across St Hildegard: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen] Another woman oppressed by the Church. Hmm

FYI the Catholic Church is the world's biggest charity because that's what christians do: [http://catholicherald.co.uk/issues/february-17th-2017/a-worldwide-force-for-good/]

CardinalSin · 08/09/2017 11:29

And it sounds like you have read a very, shall we say, one-sided version of history...

MysticalRose · 08/09/2017 11:31

But the likelihood in this day and age is that I've been exposed to both sides and you've been given the secular, anti-Christian biased version.

Youshallnotpass · 08/09/2017 11:34

I find it odd when people blame religion for wars and death. Human's are inherently violent/warlike (look at our history).

Religion isn't the cause, it's an excuse.

If there was no religion, we would find something else to kill each other over.

Youshallnotpass · 08/09/2017 11:35

Also, I say the above as an Atheist

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