To ask DWs 2/3/4 What exactly is your thought process re having babies with him

[ForgotwhatIcameinherefor]

So my DD2's dad sees our daughter as little as he can in spite of court order - he will cancel on a fairly regular basis at short notice and with the flimsiest excuse - if not just a fake one (I can literally always check his constant social media updates for the facts). They have barely any phone/text conversation between visits and he wants no involvement in her life beside the single overnight stays when they do happen. When she is with him she just has to fit in with his and current wife's weekend plans so sometimes see family, often go to Dunelm, ASDA etc and walk the dog. He did take her to the cinema once last year. DD always comes home completely empty handed, even if it's been for a night following her birthday or Christmas as she is not allowed to bring anything home, but she tells me she won't ask him for treats or anything while she's there anyway, she just sort of "knows" not to. I could go on about how little regard he shows/miserly he is towards her but don't want to be too specific.
Thing is, I could understand the whole wicked stepmother thing re his wife of 2 years ie wanting him all to herself "without the pesky kid around" but now it's confirmed they have been trying for a baby since the wedding. She can see for herself how he (mis)treats his own daughter no matter what lies he has told her about me.
If you are wife number 2 (or later) how do you think you know your DH is going to treat your future DC differently?
Genuinely intrigued, and certainly don't feel any malice towards DD's dad's wife who I have never met as I wouldn't wish her current husband on anyone

Petalflowers, it's not an everyday life if it only occurs for a few hours twice a month (max) is it? Would you honestly call that a relationship that we should be able to take for granted?
I've just reread my op and sorry, I abandoned first draft and I wasn't clear, most of the time is spent on respective tablets, playing or watching films on her own, not in a shopping trolley having jokey interaction around the supermarket aisles.

Thanks reallybadidea I really appreciate that answer.

And SimplyNigella I love the sound of your parents

I think because they believe in the fairytale, it will be different with their child. Or they are desperate for kids and are having one despite him being a feckless parent?

KC225 that's awful I'd have fallen out with her too, no way could I bite my tongue. I actually couldn't respect a woman who thinks that's ok.

I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised though really, I mean society has always been ok with men abandoning their children, it's not new. Women are part of society and take in all the misogynistic messages that are about so maybe we shouldn't be that shocked that some have such low standards and expectations of a partner that abandoning a child can be overlooked.

Op I completly get what your saying ds2 dad never bothered with him then I find out he has a new baby.
He's currently not bothering with new baby either.
I do wonder what he will say to the next one. Even his mother agrees with me ds2 will be on Jeremy Kyle in 20 years to find his siblings

I also agree with reallybadidea

Lots of people hate the idea of an ex-wife/partner hanging around. It makes their life a lot easier if there isn't any "baggage" from the past and of course, their wonderful partner would never do the same to them because they're different

I had the opposite. My ex had his then 12 year old every weekend/hols. I guess he figured he'd done his bit and sees our two for around 6 hours once a month

With the perfection of hindsight I shoulda let my ex disappear when we first split he straight away showed a lack of interest in dd (but told his parents and ow now 2nd wife that it was me keeping him from seeing her).

Their first was conceived while he was still with me and I believe engineered by her to get him to leave me, I kicked him out before she knew she was pregnant as it turns out. No's 2 3 4 and 5 pregnancies appeared when he cheated on her. I think she won't leave him because she is very well aware of how badly he treats his dc when not living with them.

Wtf she's gonna do when he cheats next time I don't know, her last birth was very difficult.

I met DP, when his eldest was 3, he made sure to pay maintaince, see his DS whenever he could (he worked shifts at the time) he and his ex wife, didn't get on but they put that to one side when it came to their child.

I didn't have any children, so would suggest somethings and he would just go, he is 4 (by the time I met him) I had no idea what you could and couldn't do with children, so I would imagine, that someone who doesn't have children, that you rely very much on their judgement and that becomes your normal. Now I have DS I cringe at the fact that I suggested walking something like 5 miles with DSS

Thank you. We're working on it

Fleshing out the picture and the distances involved and infrequency of contact he sounds like a complete twat and I'm sorry for your daughter and for how hard it must be for you as her mum seeing her so let down by him.

He's chosen not to be close enough to her often enough to know what she likes doing and to have a proper relationship with her. Her loss yes, but his too and there's no possible excuse for it.

No way of knowing what he's told his wife so if she's kind to your DD I guess give her the benefit of the doubt. But I'd also prepare for contact to lessen further if/when they have a child together with excuses about the distance to travel and general bsby disruption. Your DD might find it very difficult knowing she has a half sibling she hardly ever sees too, and that their child is with its dad all the time.

She's lucky to have you.

They think it will be different with their child because first wife is crazy/kidnapped the child/refuses contact/wants him back or no contact/insert other bullshit here. They fall for that completely and don't realise the truth until it's their turn.

To be frank I would never marry a man who had voluntarily left his children. Even if he visits them regularly and buys the lavish gifts. You don't walk away from your children no matter how much you hate their mother.

I might be misunderstanding this but are you saying that parents should never split up?

Because IME it can often be better for the children to have 2 parents (or families) who care for them separately than living in a household where they regularly see arguments, resentment, even abuse.

I've met women who were extremely happy that the man had no contact with 'ex-kids'. Because of course their family would be totally different and he would dote on their future kids.

And I've also seen this happening - father forgets one family but is a perfect dad to 'new' kids. Usually until the next divorce though, when the new kids also become 'ex-kids'

Completely agree with pp's. The new women may feel that they are different or better than the ex. They'll hear all of the sob stories about the evil ex who doesn't understand them.

I know a young woman who has started a relationship with a married guy. He left his wife for her just after Christmas and it's all sunshine and roses at the minute. The ex-wife is apparently being 'unreasonable'. Can't say I blame her tbh. This is the guys' second failed marriage, he has children from both marriages and in fairness, he sees them and says how much he loves them. That didn't stop him leaving them on Christmas Day with no explanation to go and have lunch with the new woman. And when they went on holiday recently he left his phone at home and didn't tell even the ex where they were going, no thought about potential emergencies etc. I was completely gobsmacked at the fact that new woman admitted all of this without any hint of embarrassment or shame. She doesn't have kids so I can only assume that she doesn't understand the implications of his actions, but if she does go on to have children with him, I do wonder if the fact that he left his children so easily at Christmas will play on her mind at all when her own dc are gazing up at her on Christmas morning with wide eyes.

Ok, fair enough. So they don't do things as a family, even if it's something as mundane as shopping, but sit around all entertaining themselves individually on screens. That's not good.

My friend's dad was on wife number 6 last time I heard.
Each subsequent wife is younger and more naive.

My friends mum was EX no. 3. She was the OW2, and then became EX3 when OW3 became EX4.

He's got loads of half brothers and sisters that have gone from centre of attention to ignored after a few years. Some of them are messed up. They hate the younger siblings.

His mum isn't stupid. She wasn't horrible to his older step siblings when she was with his dad but they hardly ever saw them. After the divorce they saw them once or twice.

Not all men are like that. He's terrible.

I'm a second wife and my husband had a 7yr old when we met (his wife had had an affair, left him and was married to the om by the time we met). One of the biggest attractions of my husband was how much he adored his son and how he did everything he could to spend as much time with him, despite what his ex wife threw at him. To me it was an indication of what kind of father he'd be to our children if we had them.

DH's dad left when he was a teenager. The OW had kids the same ages as DH and his siblings. Him and OW went on to have kids together.
He has made zero effort over the years with his first family but has actually been a good step dad and dad to his second family.
So I guess people do change sometimes

What a grim thread. Any man who bolted on his kids is a turn-off. But...

To be annoying and factual, most men are booted out of the family home, can't afford a second family home, and don't get residency in court. So there's something of a limit set to how much time they can spend with the children.

In other European countries eg Denmark you can't run out on your kids - you get joint residency automatically. Kids spend
50% of time with each parent. This applies to children from both marriages and casual relationships, by the way.

Obviously, alimony payments to women are not so large in these countries, as women are expected to function like everyone else ie not spend their lives being supported by an ex from decades ago. The legal emphasis is on the fresh start, not lifelong dependency to a person you no longer see, for both sexes.

I don't get it. If I met a man who didn't prioritise his kids and dropped them I would be running away fast.

I've only read the OP so far.

My ex had a child when we met who he didn't see. He told me this was due to the child's mother witholding contact. when we'd been together a short while contact resumed. then she stopped it again. and started it again. and then when she found out I was pregnant (unplanned) she stopped it altogether and then moved so he had no idea where they were. After about 5 years she suddenly got in touch wanting him to see his son, which we did for a while, then she again decided it wasn't good enough and stopped it. so his bound with his son is fractured and contact is very sporadic between them.
People have told me I shouldn't have had children with someone 'like that', however He has always been a good dad to our 3 children, even when our relationship ended he has regular contact, is involved and engaged with their lives and pays his way. It's not always as simple as it might seem.

Yes, and what does it say about a man who doesn't even make an effort to get the scraps of contact he is able to get in those situations?

Oh and, great, I assume in all that time he made the effort to go the legal route to ensure he got contact? No? Surprise.

I have a good friend who is smart but was completely taken in by a man's (obvious) lies. His ex had cheated. His ex made life really hard for hi, after the split. He adored his children and was heartbroken he rarely got to see them. He was always 'about to' fight to see them more. He didn't pay his way with my friend because he was supposedly sending so much maintenance to his ex, which he did because he wanted to as he took his responsibilities so seriously.

In reality he was a feckless wastrel, who didn't pay his ex a penny and chose not to see his kids. The, unsurprising, truth came out when he ditched my friend and her child with him.

I know of a few families where the father was awful when he left the first family but great with the second. But in at least one or two of those cases the next relationship broke down too and he became just as awful a dad to the second set of children too. In some cases a man is only as interested in his children as he is in their mother/as long as there's not another woman around. But what possessed the second/next women to trust such men, I don't know. I can only guess naivety, gullibility or wilfully choosing to only see what they want to see.

When I first met my now DH he didn't have any contact with his DD, but he was going through court to get access. We weren't dating at that point so he had no reason to lie, and I saw his distress as he fought for contact.

By the time we had our DD, his DD was living with us full time and her "D"M had lost all interest in seeing her.