To ask if this aspect of schools has changed?

[moutonfou]

I did very well at school, got top grades in everything. And because that was all the education system was focused around, that was enough. Of course I also had zero confidence and severe social anxiety, but nobody seemed to notice or care because I was getting the grades. So when I got to the workplace, I could never fulfil my supposed potential because, what do you know, skills besides academic intelligence are valued in the workplace! Things like teamwork, influencing, building rapport, managing people, etc., which I have had to learn from scratch.

Not having school-age kids, can anyone tell me if it's changed at all? Is there any effort to produce well-rounded individuals or is it still grades grades grades?

Actually with our school (in Scotland, maybe different policies here) there's almost TOO much of the confidence building and self-esteem stuff, to the point where the kids get really jaded about it and it takes too much time away from normal learning.

The trouble is it's all around just telling kids to be resilient, confident, etc. I think that's often counterproductive, because if you actually do feel knocked back or worthless because of being bullied, having SEN, etc - then it's just another failure by you that you're not resilient enough.

I think kids gain self esteem more by having their efforts recognised and being listened to and cared about. To be fair there are some great teachers who do do that. In general, schools do seem to care more about these things than they did when I was at school - they just aren't always very good at carrying it out.

Yes, it's changed.

We're expected to be parents, social workers and psychologists as well as teachers these days it seems.

The last inset I attended was like doing CBT on speed. Mental health, resilience, self esteem, perception, reaction etc - all huge priorities now.

inclusion classes
nurture classes
Social classes
Resilience classes
relationship groups (both friendship and upwards)
Chill groups
Social groups
various clubs.

yep, schools do lots towards this, but the pupils still need to turn up.

Agree with PetalHead - in Scotland there is so much more about team work, resilience, respecting rights, being heard, make your views known, talk about your feelings, enterprise, being on committees etc with a focus on making a rounded individual. I do think though that correlates with a drop in educational achievement levels recently highlighted. think the balance has swung too far and needs to be corrected a bit.

Schools have changed a lot in my opinion. My eldest son is 25 and his ASD was not picked up until he was 15 resulting in me taking him out of school and home educating him from 11. He could not cope with school at all as it was so rigid and only focused on education despite them seeing he was suffering in social and group situations. My second son who also has autism was helped from week 2 when they realised his problems and as a result at age 14 he is in the top 2 in his year in all subjects. He was diagnosed later on but his difficulties were already being helped. He is doing well because he has a quiet place to go at lunch and break times, he does not do Drama, PE, Art, Music or Languages and can concentrate on the ones he can cope with and he has social skills lessons twice a week to help him cope with other people. He even managed to go up in front of 400 parents to receive the principal's award last term. I cannot praise his secondary school set up highly enough.

I am secondary school teacher. In my experience it is getting worse. At a recent training session and Ofsted inspector told us that all they are interested in is grades and this is certainly the model our school is trying to adopt.

However I have calculated that students spend only 11% of their time in lessons and schools can only do a limited amount within such a short space of time.

At a recent training session and Ofsted inspector told us that all they are interested in is grades

You should report the inspector as this isn't the case.

We're expected to be parents, social workers and psychologists as well as teachers these days it seems - no I have never expected that, but I have expected secondary school teachers to be caring, considerate, well educated in their subject and to make calm and measured decisions - maybe to notice when a child is going to school with bruises (or getting them in school) - you know, that sort of high aspirations (the same sort of teachers my kids had at primary school) And I have in the main, my DDs having attended 4 different secondary schools, I have been entirely disappointed.

Things like teamwork, influencing, building rapport, managing people, etc

But all these skills would have been covered during normal academic learning, even in a very academically focused school. Are you saying that for the whole time you were at school, you just sat at a desk writing in every lesson and didn't ever interact with any other pupils?

Surely you did things like PE, where you had to play team sports? And sometimes you must have worked with other pupils? Didn't you ever have to pair up or get into groups for drama, foreign languages, science experiments?!

Did your school never make anyone read aloud in class or do any sort of oral communication tasks as part of academic learning? Was there never any sort of class discussion?

The sorts of things you're talking about wouldn't need to be taught as an additional skill because they would already be a part of academic learning in every normal school since about 1960. As well as being part of everyday life and normal development outside school.

It was not said in her capacity as an Ofsted inspector and she tried to backtrack and not link it to Ofsted. But I think there are many inspectors who still have their own agenda and don't tow the party line in terms of what Ofsted are suppose to looking for.

StaplesCorner

my DDs having attended 4 different secondary schools, I have been entirely disappointed.

Maybe part of the problem is that the secondary school teachers haven't had time to build a relationship with your DDs?

Yes they do!

Team building
Thinking skills
Reading out loud
Presentations
Whole year work projects
Team projects
Social skills
P4C

A lot is done in tutor time -

Changerofname987654321

I think that you are correct in that inspectors often have their own agenda.

But since the last change this seems to have reduced.

StaplesCorner

Because my last post could be taken in a bad way.

I mean that in primary, even if they where only there for four weeks (arbitrary number), they would have the same teacher for 4 weeks. in a secondary school, depending on the subject, in the same time period (4 weeks) any where from 2 hours to 16 hours. it will take longer to build the relationship.

There has been more of a focus on 'skills' recently - so as well as learning about urban planning, for example, we're also developing communication skills, ICT and teamwork. Making the pupils aware of what skills they should be working on helps them develop.

Or so they say.

I think if your levels of social awkwardness are (like mine) down to some kind of special needs - I have ADHD - schools are still just as crap at picking these up if they only present in a way which affects you personally. My behaviour didn't hugely affect my school work until later and didn't cause disruption in class so they probably had no reason to investigate anything.

If I'd have got to university then looking at what friends have experienced it might have been picked up there.

I think awareness in general is improving so kids with these kinds of issues do get picked up earlier but there are lots of us I think who fall through the cracks.

I think neurotypical kids do pick up the kinds of skills mentioned from schools.

*schools are still just as crap at picking these up if they only present in a way which affects you personally

The problem here is you are expecting teachers, who see hundreds of kids a week in groups of 30 or more, for an hour each time, to be able to diagnose things like ADHD. This is ludicrous, to be honest. They aren't trained to and it's not something they should even be trying to do.

People expect teachers to do everything. Just let them teach.

maybe to notice when a child is going to school with bruises (or getting them in school)

What an odd thing to say with regards to the main point of this thread. Have your DDs turned up to one of their 4 different schools with bruises then or been school refusers?

A much more complex situation than just the "teamwork" and "leadership" skills outlined in the OP and a big jump from just wanting teachers to be caring, considerate and well educated in their subject that you started off with...

Straight A student who took GCSE maths a year early? Check.
Chronic under achiever now working in a NMW job age 42? Check.
I think the skills you mentioned are so important and I had none of them still don't . All very well saying it's the parents' job but what if they are not up to the job? Just forget about the kid then?

All very well saying it's the parents' job but what if they are not up to the job? Just forget about the kid then?

What's your answer, teachers do the parents jobs when they can't? Parents don't buy them new shoes, teachers should do it? Parents do give a proper breakfast, teachers should make toast?
They CAN'T do everything. Is it bad when parents fail their children? Yes. But that doesn't mean all schools have to do it for all children, and it doesn't mean they could even if they wanted to.

Yeah perhaps I worded that poorly, I think I meant schools are still just as unlikely to flag issues up. I don't think it's necc the school's fault, perhaps as you say it's not their place. It's tricky though because without regular developmental check ups into the teens, parents aren't always aware if their DC's behaviour or markers are out of the ordinary so they might well miss it too.

I don't really know what the answer is but it definitely seems the expectation in the UK that schools should pick up on anything that's likely to affect acadics or social skills.

Yes, schools very much do try to do that these days, but without encouraging and supportive parents it will still be a drop in the ocean. By the time a child gets to secondary school, much about their personality and attitudes is already pretty fixed.

Although an unmanageable amount is expected of schools these days, it would be unhelpful and counter-productive for a school to 'leave it to the parents' to instill good skills and attitudes, because the school as a community will benefit from having well-rounded, resilient and well-adjusted pupils. Trying to achieve that is a no-brainer really, even if it's hard to have much impact.

There is quite a lot of pastoral input, but it does tend to be at the expense of academic development in many cases, some schools are cutting down now and focussing more on academics.

I agree schools are there for academic education, everything else is parents, really, in an ideal world.

I agree I wasn't at all clear in my post, how I was linking it to the subject of the OP. I suppose I was just saying in general, after the poster who said that teachers are expected to do x y and z, that in my experience they weren't doing even basic pastoral care, let alone teaching resilience etc., but then if they were providing that support, giving a caring and supportive environment would be more conducive to things like confidence, working together etc.

This was prompted by DD2 going into year 10, buying stationery yesterday she was asking what kids do if their parents can't afford these things and I said I am sure the teachers would notice and the school would help and she said no, they just shout at them if they don't have the right calculator, pencils etc. So if basic support like that isn't it place, how is there going to be any education on building rapport?!

Maybe part of the problem is that the secondary school teachers haven't had time to build a relationship with your DDs? - Boney you have lost me there. DD1 has now left school, surely 7+ years was enough?!

StaplesCorner

Hopefully my second post clears it up. (I really don't mean that to sound as harsh as it does)