To ask you all about your minds eye?

[GrampieRabbit]

I've had a really long running thread about this a few years ago, but I wanted to revisit it - firstly because I find it really interesting, and secondly for dissertation ideas

So I don't have a minds eye. I couldn't picture a tree in my head, or a house, or my baby's face. I couldn't tell you 100% which colour my room is painted in, or what colour my dads car is. I literally think in words.

This means I have trouble with directions, even to places I've been several times. My memory is absolutely terrible - my long term memory is practically non existent.

Does anyone else experience similar? There's a test you can take here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-340390544*

I know I want to do my dissertation on this condition. I'm so fascinated by it, and have been ever since I realised it was actually a thing (on Mumsnet!)

But I want it to be on aphantasia AND something. I was thinking aphantasia and memory.

But I remember that last time I had a thread on this, Mumsnetters with aphantasia (and myself) read extraordinarily quickly, and always had done from a young age. So I was thinking maybe I could test the strength of participant's minds eyes (couldn't work out the grammar for that phrase!), and then timing them whilst they read something. But might have to include some comprehension questions I guess to check they've actually read it.

Then I started thinking about the fact that people said they had always read quickly - so is this something we're born with? Could I figure out a way to test kids for it? Maybe a little too complicated?

My dissertation proposal's due in a couple of days. It can be really vague - I could probably just get away with writing 'aphantasia', but I want to get paired with the most appropriate supervisor, hence the forward thinking. Am waiting on DD to go to bed then I'll research some more, but these are just some initial ideas.

Please, please share your experiences of aphantasia and thoughts on interesting dissertation ideas

Hey! I just worked really hard at visualising a Union Jack and I got better by trying!

I'm convinced there is scope for improvement.

I've got a strong inner eye and can imagine or recall visual images easily - I was almost at the point of eidetic memory when I was at school and could reproduce extensive chunks of text. I only have to find my way to a place once and the route is permanently embedded in my mind, even years later and I'm fascinated by maps. I've lived in another country for ten years and am fluent in the language - I think and dream in this language as well as English. My spelling is great in English and pretty good in my second language though I do this via visualization - I see a blackboard in my head with a hand writing the word in chalk. Fascinating how different we all are.

I scored 8/40. Only 5% get this. I literally just see black and ocassionaly foating coloured lights like when you look at a light and you see those floating dots...

However i read books so quickly. I remember every detail and get so engrosed in them yet i cant 'see' them. Really dont know how to explain it! I never understood as a kid when we were told to visualise things. I thought it was a waste of time and didnt realise others could! Never thought about it much until this year!!!! It is sad really because i would love to see things. I can struggle with empathy to a certain extent. Not wholly but sometimes. I also day dream.but not about anything. I just lind of zone out and think but in words. But i cant see the words. I just think the words. Thinking about this is giving me a headace. I can deacribe things from memory but as a fact not as a copy of an image

My score suggests a reasonable chance of hyperphantasia.

You could do about anphantasia and emotional response - so how strongly do people react to photos of their loved ones vs info? Or with literacy levels ?

You said for example that they may be faster readers because they don't need to picture the image ... but do they continue to read for pleasure as adult because they can't see the scene as vividly?

You don't need to see the image clearly to enjoy the story. Books introduce concepts, clever dialogue and emotions as much as imagery. I think I enjoyed reading Twilight so much because it took me back to how I felt as a teenager. As I read along I empathise with Bella and feel the emotions in my gut. I 're-read books regularly where I have a strong emotional connection. I find it a real thrill to read a new book that gives me that feeling that I am looking for.

I have a very good minds eye according to the test. Scored in top 23%. But I am also a very fast reader. Always have been. And think in a combination of words and images.

But I'm a fast reader AND have the intense images. It doesn't seem to slow me down, as it's all happening in a millisecond, not something I'm even really conscious of if I'm reading. I'm telling you, the curse of having this amazing minds eye, and being able to control/remember dreams, is when you have a crush. I remember some of my crushes getting so bloody invasive and intense. I could picture the person, and recall everything they'd ever said or done in minute detail, and would be haunted at every waking and sleeping moment by picturing them. Anyone else suffered from a debilitating crush?

Anyone else suffered from a debilitating crush?

Definitely, mygorgeousmilo. But for me it's the sound of their voice - and if it's someone I know IRL, their smell. Plus, like you, everything they've ever said and done recalled in detail, but the memories are all auditory not visual. I'm not tormented by pictures the way you are, but by a soundtrack of their voice that I can't turn off.

This is amazing, I'd read a couple of threads on the aphantasia here before but I've learnt a lot from this one. My mind's eye is pretty active. I'm still puzzled about a couple of things and would appreciate more of an insight into it, eg

1. To draw or paint, I assume you've got to have the physical scene or object in front of you?

1. So you can't fantasise during sex - either on your own or with someone?
2. When playing sport, which I don't do much of, I'd've thought you needed to visualise for instance different tennis or squash strokes, or different team scenarios when you're trying to improve? Like to mimic a good serve, it helps me to visualise throwing the ball high and hitting it at the right point in my mind. I guess you just tell yourself to throw the ball high! But in hockey/football passing etc?

Not sure if I'm making sense here but would be grateful if someone could clarify, thanks!

Speaking personally...
1 basically yes. You can cheat using "rules" (circle for a face, etc)
2 not visually....
3it's more imagining the feeling and movement in the body (I can just about visualise someone else reaching up and serving but it's faint). I have no problem working on dance technique which is really about bodily awareness.

sorry, haven't read it all, but I wanted to respond to your premise.
I have a very vivid imagination, can visualise loads in my head, conjure up pictures from books etc
In the link you gave I was more at the illustrators end of the spectrum.

But I am a very fast reader. I can also skim read, either for information (eg when I did my degree) or in an easy fiction book, I can skim read whole paragraphs etc. I don't think the two are connected.

I am also a very word based person., eg I have learnt 3 foreign languages as an adult, and I cannot learn them just by listening and repeating, I need to see words written down to learn them, once I have seen the word it then locks into my memory really quickly, along with its pronunciation.

*Hey! I just worked really hard at visualising a Union Jack and I got better by trying!

I'm convinced there is scope for improvement.*

I personally think if you can teach yourself to visualise that easily, you haven't got aphantasia. I've spent years attempting meditation, having therapy which involves visualisation etc and have never, ever been able to even slightly visualise anything. There's different levels of course, but if you scored 0 and have no minds eye, I don't think there's anything you could do to change that. In my own experience, obviously.

Yes, like genuine amusia: people who cannot figure out why music would make people feel emotion.

Presumably aphantasia a spectrum thing?

I've been a really quick reader and can visualise books really well. I can also visualise scenes when being described.

But I struggle really badly with directions and remembering faces and things when asked. I've had major arguments with people because of it.

And then I also have to visualise a word in order to know if it's spelled right. I can't do difficult mental maths unless I 'draw it in front of me in the air and the same with words. So no idea if this helps you at all but I'm gonna say there's some different layers to it all and I don't know what to think anymore 😂😂

I agree about the tennis question to some extent. I can't learn a sport by watching my what the coach does, I have to use trial and error and get my body to remember how it feels when it is right.

I found this quite upsetting, I had no idea that I didn't 'see' in my mind's eye at all. Just had a revealing discussion with DH who I then asked to picture someone (i.e. who we both know) and he rattles off loads about his face planes, hair line, skin texture, hairline, moles etc with the caveat that 'it is a bit tricky as he doesn't know him that well'. It was a revelation.

I realise I cannot even picture my DH apart from being 'essence' of DH. I even missed his glasses in a facial description. It is like a blur.

One Of my DD said she cannot picture me if I am away. The other DD can see all the lights and shade in a face and gets carried away imagining things because she can see them.

Ok so I just did some visualising exercises and have realised that when I have my eyes closed I can barely visualise anything but with my eyes open it's easier. Which still makes it really odd for me because I am a very vivid dreamer and often remember bits of my dreams clearly, even years later (and will know if I've had a dream before or not).

I’m interested in the connection between being able to visualise and artistic ability. I enjoy drawing anthropomorphised animals that look rather different to animals out in the external world. Without some sort of a picture in my mind’s eye, I know I’d find it very difficult. On the other hand I suspect my visualisation skills are not top of the range. Many autistic individuals, in particular, have far superior ‘inner eyes’. (I wouldn’t associate problems with empathy with visualisation difficulties at all.)

I wanted to include a couple of pictures in this post, one by the autistic savant Stephen Wiltshire who draws buildings and cityscapes, often from memory, and one by Eric Jiani, diagnosed as borderline autistic, who creates very detailed fantasy landscapes. I’m just amazed by their work! I could not begin to produce anything close to this sort of visual complexity.

I would be very intrigued to know if other posters are capable of conjuring up inner vistas of a comparable intricacy.

Both artists I mentioned seem to have a version of hyperphantasia that has arisen as a compensatory trait.

What compensatory traits might be associated with aphantasia? It would, for example, be fascinating to know if individuals with aphantasia have, on average, a larger auditory digit span than those without. This would correlate with phonological loop capacity and reading speed - as well as tying in with Grampie’s idea for a project.

A video showing Stephen Wiltshire recreating a cityscape from memory.

I'm a quick reader, and can also recall text by visualising it. I can also visualise spaces, buildings, pictures etc as I trained in design and this is a skill you have to develop specifically. But I am rubbish at translating heard information, and have no sense of direction, so I am completely unable to listen to directions and actually get to the place- I can't even listen to a satnav!
I have to write them down as a visual notation- left turn, right at the church, roundabout etc. Give me a town where I can visualise the layout and I'm ok, a new town with roundabouts and similar housing and I'm lost for hours.

On the other hand I'm better at remembering someone's voice and way of moving than their face.
Wierd thing, the brain

"there's some different layers to it all and I don't know what to think anymore 😂😂"

Yes, seems like there are very different things going on for:
Objects and landscapes
Faces
Man-made analytic stuff like maps, numbers, letters and words
The left-right concept.

Fascinating! Re compensatory traits, mine is an ability to play long pieces of music in my head accurately and to break them down.so I would be able to learn, say, a piano concerto part as quickly as a concert pianist and wouldnt have to think of this as "memorising".(I would not play it well or even adequately though: that's an entirely different matter.)

That’s an amazing ability Ringle. I can’t imagine being able to do that. I can barely conjure up brief snatches.

I’m actually quite relieved that the rest of humanity doesn’t think like me. Everyone would be wandering around permanently lost and music would regress to the level of simple nursery rhymes.

I like this TED talk given by Temple Grandin called The world needs all kinds of minds. She is talking specifically about the autistic mind but has some thought-provoking general comments to make too. She has also written a book called Thinking in Pictures.

I’m actually quite relieved that the rest of humanity doesn’t think like me. Everyone would be wandering around permanently lost and music would regress to the level of simple nursery rhymes.

In my world, cities would be organised like Manhattan with numbered streets. Ball sports would have died out completely and films would be subtitled to help the viewer remember which character is which. Travel would be by train and tram as no-one's spatial awareness would be good enough for driving, and everyone would sing along, word-perfect, to whatever music was playing on public transport.

This is fascinating. I'm not convinced I visualise well (it's not super clear images during conscious daytime, but I get engrossed in daydreams and dreams) but I do.

For people who don't - do you fantasise about anything? Eg as a teen I constantly daydreamed scenarios about the boys I fancied, being stuck in a classroom with them (sigh) etc - it was all a clear 'vision' sort of daydream.

I play conversations over in my head again and again when I think all the different ways a scenario might go. I sort of see it. I definitely see/hear how they would react. Anyone else do this? How do you wonder how things will go if you don't?