To be frustrated by the misunderstanding of the honorific 'Ms' ?

[ChinkChink]

Inspired by another thread.

I've come across many people who believe that 'Ms' is the honorific for a divorced woman, rather than the female equivalent of 'Mr'. People including several employers, managers, supervisors etc, plus friends and family who I'd normally regard as clued up. And many of them women.

I do welcome the introduction of the term 'Mx' as a title to be used when gender is irrelevant [almost always!] but I fear that Mx will go the same way - people will interpret it as a title for someone who is [for example] transgender.

What say you, MN massive?

I worked very hard to qualify to be a "Mrs." and shall never relinquish that title!

I suspect reality will never match up what my imagination can come up with.
Very soap operish.

No, it's 'miz'. Quite simple. 'Mzz' or 'Muz' is a weird pronounciation used by British people who just don't get it, presumably in a half baked attempt to show that Ms is silly.

Amen to that.

When idiots try to show their contempt for the title 'Ms' by deliberately mispronouncing it in a theatrically cumbersome way, I just think

a) you're a twat.
B) you know you have no rational argument if that's your best shot.
C) I probably think they're a twat again.

"Miss if unmarried under 30, Ms if unmarried and over 30. That's how I was told to tell the difference at least."

I don't even know what to say in response to the unbelievable rudeness of peering at the person you are speaking to, trying to work out their age, and then basically letting them know how old you think they are.

The cultural tendency to hang onto Miss and Mrs seems to be a very British thing. I live overseas, and in American and international contexts (English is now used as the international business language much of the time among non-native speakers), Ms has increasingly become the default standard. When I am back in the UK and keep getting "Mrs," it feels very odd, like a relic of former times.

Well then you are very rude and rather foolish.

to insist on being addressed by my correct name?

so if you chose how you are addressed, you re striking a brave blow for the cause, but if I do, I am rude and foolish?

And for what? Because you feel some need to announce something to people?

Because to me Ms is always going to mean "ashamed of who I am and the decisions I have made" or " getting brow beaten by aggressive feminists, and unable to stick up for myself"

whereas Miss or Mrs means "happy and proud of who I am, and not going to be pushed around by the PC brigade and told what I have to call myself"

but if someone asks to be called ms, I respect that, it is their choice, it will never be mine though I hate the way it comes across

Polls mere did it ever occur to you to wonder why 'Mrs' might be considered more of a term of respect? Respect isn't an absolute unchanging thing.

Your secretarial course taught you a very specific view of the world including that there had once been a little tiny movement for equality but that had all been left behind now thanks to objections by 'ladies'. Clearly Ms is violently objectionable to some, which is a fair point. But your course was also biased in its viewpoints and I'm depressed that you took it as gospel truth. 'Ms' as unmarried over 30 indeed.

*Because to me Ms is always going to mean "ashamed of who I am and the decisions I have made" or " getting brow beaten by aggressive feminists, and unable to stick up for myself"

whereas Miss or Mrs means "happy and proud of who I am, and not going to be pushed around by the PC brigade and told what I have to call myself"*

Thanks for that perfect illustration of why I started this thread.

Ms is female equivalent of Mr.

HTH

Because to me Ms is always going to mean "ashamed of who I am and the decisions I have made" or " getting brow beaten by aggressive feminists, and unable to stick up for myself

Bless.

I had no idea about the divorced woman use/connotation of Ms until now. Doesn't bother me though if people think this or not seeing my 'Ms' though. I've used Ms since I was an adult, single and now married.
Ms just means 'adult woman' to me. Never met an 'Mx' IRL.
Our work ask us our titles for some lists and I was surprised at the number of all of the women I work with unmarried women who listed themselves as Miss and married women who gave Mrs not Ms. The person compiling the list is a card-carrying sexist and they probably eye rolled massively but hey backatcha.

you should listen to yourselves.

you are apptempting to bully and ridicule someone who feels differently to you.

if you want to be called Ms, go ahead, its your call. It is equally my call what I am called, and you asked me why and I told you why.

I am very proud of being "miss" and always will be.

I hate the connotations that go with "Ms" and always will do.

Your attempts to put me down illustrate exactly why I will never accept "Ms" - and they also say far more about you they do about anything else.

That is exactly the sort of attitude associated with "Ms" - and the reason so many women refuse the title.

Agree, Ms seems to be the default international equivalent to Madame/Frau.

I assume anyone who is a Ms has kept her surname (like me). It would be ridiculous to call myself Mrs - I'm not married to my father

Your attempts to put me down illustrate exactly why I will never accept "Ms" - and they also say far more about you they do about anything else

Do you mean you won't accept other women wanting to call themselves Ms?

I hate the connotations that go with "Ms" and always will do.
But the whole point is that there actually AREN'T any connotations to Ms (or shouldn't be!). It just means female, like Mr means male. It doesn't mean anything other than that.
You cannot correctly and reliably infer anything from the use of Ms other than that the person using it is female.

YABU. Ms doesn't mean divorced. And how the hell do you pronounce Mx? That's why no one will ever use Mx.

Because to me Ms is always going to mean "ashamed of who I am

Stop, you're killing me 😂

^you should listen to yourselves.

you are apptempting to bully and ridicule someone who feels differently to you.

if you want to be called Ms, go ahead, its your call. It is equally my call what I am called, and you asked me why and I told you why.

I am very proud of being "miss" and always will be.

Can you explain why? I'm honestly curious. I'm not 'proud' to be Ms - it's just a title and the one that happens to suit me best. I don't really understand what pride can be derived from a fairly irrelevant honorific.

Your attempts to put me down illustrate exactly why I will never accept "Ms" - and they also say far more about you they do about anything else.

Should we feel likewise about 'Miss', given you seem fairly keen to denigrate women who choose Ms (either ashamed or browbeaten) despite plenty of women on this thread giving cogent and polite to explanations of other motivations?

Oops, italic fail above. Perhaps that's because I'm a Ms....

When idiots try to show their contempt for the title 'Ms' by deliberately mispronouncing it in a theatrically cumbersome way, I just think

If you genuinely think that people are purposely mispronuncing the word to passive aggressively show their contempt for your lifestyle choice then you are the problem. Most people have way more pressing issues to worry about than to care about how or why you introduce yourself. It is a lot more likely that people struggle with the word as it is a word they're unfamiliar with. Nobody in my family or any of my friends families have ever felt it necessary to hide their marital status in such a way so it's not a word that naturally rolls off of the tongue.
As for people mentioning teachers, yes they often get called Miss just as male teachers get Sir. It is easier for kids to call out monosyllabic words regardless of whether the teacher is question is married/unmarried/has a knighthood. However, when I was at school, if using the teachers actual name we always referred to them as Mr Jones, Mrs May or Miss Thomas, whichever the correct version was.

Where I work, a woman caught a train from an hour away to march in tearfully clutching a letter we'd sent her. We'd called her Ms and she was beside herself. She was divorced but still used Mrs.

She said 'well you can see why I'm upset', er not really love. I can see why you are totally mental.

At our primary all the DC call the class teacher by their chosen title and the TA by their first name, which is the way their school does it.

We also managed to call our physics teacher at secondary Dr Physics Teacher without any problem, that was her proper title.

It does seem possible for even four year old children and upwards to grasp that people can decide what title (or first name) they want to be called by and that it's polite and correct for other people to then use that title or name for them.

I just though Ms was for someone who wanted to be called that instead of Miss or Mrs?

I don't really care, even get the odd Mr on the phone for good measure. I'm not married but cannot get upset when people call me Mrs for example.

I probably won't be writing Mx for my name tbh but if that's what people want me to call then I will - what's he issue?

It must be a real issue for people who struggle to pronounce Ms and who have friends called Liz. Not to mention poor Fizz from Coronation Street. Condemned to a lifetime of people unable to pronounce your name.

The ignorance about Ms makes me wonder if it needs to be addressed in school. At some point children learn about Mr and Mrs, I know they learn to spell them in year 1, so quite early on they are learning about titles.
The trouble is that young children are mainly taught by women and I would say 99% of the young teachers I work with in schools can't wait to get married and become Mrs! (I'm a 'humourless old killjoy' if is ever DARE mention feminism/equality etc during the engagement). Maybe during school hours women are always Ms? Like a courtesy title?

School newsletters in July are full of e.g. Congratulations to Mr Smith who is getting married in the holidays. Congratulations to Miss Brown who is getting married in the holidays and will return as Mrs White. Children recognise early on that the women in their lives change their name and title on marriage so will assume this is the norm.

When idiots try to show their contempt for the title 'Ms' by deliberately mispronouncing it in a theatrically cumbersome way

I don't mispronounce it in a theatrically cumbersome way. I just think that Ms pronounced Mzz is annoying to say, whereas Ms pronounced Mizz is too close in sound to 'Miss', to the point where it may be hard to tell the difference. I absolutely think there should be a female honorific which does not indicate marital status, in line with Mr, but I don't like the one we have. My objection to Ms is purely to do with the word itself, not the concept. I'm a Mrs but am not at all attached to that honorific and would happily embrace a non-marital one if it sounded like a proper word.