To wonder why people bully?

[Picklesandpies]

I was bullied from the minute I started primary school (my first memory is being held up to wall by another four year old girl and her flicking my elasticated tie in my eyes) until I left after A Levels. The bullying varied from physical, emotional, to just plain cruel (urinating on my gloves). It really affected my attitude to school and my self confidence and it has taken decades for me to be able to speak about it without getting upset. I was always a nice, well brought up, caring and polite girl at school but it made my life a misery. I have seen the main culprit in recent years and she still looks at me with a sneer all these years later (I'm in my 30s!)

Her friend was asked a couple of years ago by a mutual friend of ours, why she bullied me and her answer was 'I don't know. She was just awful to her.' I was amazed that even her closest friend didn't understand the reason behind it.

AIBU to wonder why people bully others? I would love to understand the reasons behind it better. I'm guessing it's insecurity mainly.

I was bullied pretty much throughout secondary school, and I honestly think the main reason is jealousy. I was brought up by kind parents in a nice home and was in all the top classes at school, so no one really had any reason to bully me I don't think, but I was only ever picked on by the kids that had pretty rough home lives (or that's how it looked from the outside) or the less intelligent kids. It felt like violence was the only way they could feel they could get one up on me, because I was small so most of them were bigger and could overpower me. I was terrified at the time, but looking back their lives must have been pretty shit to get any sort of glory from physically attacking someone so much smaller than them.

On the plus side, two of the girls who picked on me the most now have pretty shit lives. Both have several children with multiple fathers, no jobs (and have never worked), and sponge off the government. I do take some satisfaction in the fact that I am in a much better position than them now.

I don't really know and it's the main reason my DD is often full of anxiety and doesn't sleep. Why do people bully me, why are some people nasty to other kids with disabilities - the most frequently asked questions at bedtime here. Until recently this was accompanied by tears, panic attacks and self harming behaviour. DD is 10.

I have no idea why DD was strangled, kicked etc by one girl at school so badly that there was no choice but to leave. But 2.5 years later I'm told the same girl is still doing it, she's moved through loads of children in the year group and it's not been stopped. DD was told nothing could be done unless she went to the teacher immediately each time (because that's so easy when you're being directly threatened not to tell of course ). Told to just give a thumbs up or down at the end of the school day to let the teacher know if she'd been beaten up or not. And told by our family support worker (we had one at the time) to toughen up and face her fears. It's taken her a long time to learn to trust adults again TBH.

I couldn't agree more that the culture needs to change, I think bullying is seen as normal and is often tolerated far too long in children when in adult workplaces or relationships it is rightfully condemned. But it's just a 'normal school experience'. It shouldn't be! It's not a normal thing to be hurt so badly that you start hurting yourself, that you lose trust in everyone who fails to protect you, that you grow up thinking you're worthless, wondering if not being alive anymore would be better.

DS was teased in school too, mocked for his speech disorder - and the HT said "well if he spoke properly it wouldn't happen".

A different girl has bullied my DD more recently (subtly and sneakily, so it took a long time to realise how bad it was - DD just couldn't bear to think that this girl wasn't her best friend as she said). She also tried consistently to get DD to join in laughing at other kids with physical disabilities (hence the question in my first paragraph - in many ways DD found this more distressing than being bullied herself).

With this girl, as it's a very different situation than school, I do have some ideas about why she bullies, and we have talked endlessly about it.

• Possessiveness. DD has lots of friends and was always happy to play in groups. This girl wanted her all to herself and got angry when it didn't happen.
• Jealousy. That DD is a happy and popular kid. A lot of the bullying was to put DD in her place so to speak.
• Knowing that her behaviour is wrong. This involved me explaining the phrase "drag someone down to your level" to DD. The bully knew how wrong it was to laugh at other kids with disabilities. She knew it makes her a bad person, and that's why she tried so hard to make DD join in - so she wouldn't be the only one doing it.
• Power. She is controlling and liked the feeling of being in charge of my compliant, passive DD who was unable to speak up. She liked wielding her power to take DD away from other friends because DD was scared to say no.
• Spite. I honestly think that some people have the 'ability' to be nasty and others just don't have it in them. I want to be wrong though.
• Her mother. This is the main reason she has bullied so badly for so long. Any attempt to say what's happened is met with defensiveness, excuses and victim blaming that is so ridiculous it's almost funny. This girl has no friends now because she has bullied so many kids - and most put up with it a lot less than we did, and walked away sooner when they first realised that her mum wasn't going to deal with it. She would accuse people of "playing the victim" and bitch about them. And even now she is ranting about how nobody's being fair to her DD. I feel really sad for the girl TBH, even DD does - because this girl will never learn how to make and keep friends if her mother doesn't step in and help rather than blindly defending her.

Wow - just woken up and read all the replies. Thank you. It's been so interesting and oddly reassuring to read them. I really relate to the way it affects your trust in others. I also think it has given me a finely tuned radar for nice/nasty people. I can generally tell within a few minutes and I'm rarely wrong.

Cagliostro I do hope things improve for your daughter. It breaks my heart hearing about your situation (and my dd is 10 too.) How can anyone behave like that towards another human being at such a young age? It does make me think there is something going on at home - surely no one is born that nasty? Even if it is, like a pp suggested, lack of attention and priorities at home are all wrong. The thing that kept me together through school was having quality family time - getting our wellies on and going for walks where I could speak freely with no distractions and get away from it all. That special time with my family was my saviour.

I agree that I think a lot of cases stem from jealousy. Although I never could and still can't see why that would have been the case for me. I was a sensitive child so I believe they saw a chink in my armour and that identified me as the victim. I was brought up in the midlands and spoke more like a southerner due to my parents being from south (saying 'bar-th' instead of 'bath' was seen as 'posh'), I was very slim, had freckles and was well mannered/spoken - things I am glad of now of course.

Pp - school were useless. When they got involved it was usually better for a week or so but then it would start again with the same or different people. I remember being attacked on my way home by a group of girls when I was in Year 7 - being pushed and hit and they just had to say sorry. They were just completely ineffective. Teachers just watched and did nothing while the popular girls at the back of the class threw half sucked boiled sweets in my hair. When I ran out in tears they just sent another child to 'check I was ok.' It was useless. However, when I played truant because I couldn't bear to be there anymore; I was in huge amounts of trouble but the teachers were not interested in why I wasn't in school. They had just got electronic registers so it was obviously exciting for them to be able to track attendance. I hope things are better in schools in general now. My DDs have not experienced bullying yet but I know I will find it hard if they do.

I can't remember their user name but thanks to the pp who shared their experience of being a bully and why they did it. It actually makes sense that it was to avoid being the victim - almost a 'I'll get there first' approach. What I don't understand is why do children as young as four do it? I had no concept of being a bully or being bullied before I started school. I assumed everyone would be nice. Why do adults do it? I'm a STAHM now but it continued into employment when I worked. The job I had before having children I left as I just couldn't take it anymore. The manager sided with the bully who was a complete ring leader and there was nowhere else to go. I've never gone back to work and I actually love not having to worry about that aspect. It's a huge relief to me.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone else who has been the bully and whether they have identified the reasons behind why they did it? I'm glad the pp said they apologised and feel awful about it. I wish the main culprit from school could send a message on Facebook to say sorry - it would give some closure somehow. Whenever I have seen her as an adult she has been just as vile though.

Thanks again for all the replies - it's been really interesting. Now I just wish we could all live on one side of the world as a pp said - life would be so much nicer!

People bully because misery loves company. Because they feel so poorly about themselves they subconsciously want others to feel the way they do. It can also be because they are narcissists or sociopaths/psychopaths who take pleasure is making others hurt, and it gives them the feeling of power and control they can't live without. There are many reasons and none of them will make their victims feel any better.

Naice children brought up by elitist, materialistic parents who enjoy the power they have over others and can't bear people who don't conform to their ideals

My dd is friends with someone like this. It breaks my heart because dd gets very upset by this girl - she comes home crying after this girl has called her ugly etc and then still wants to be her friend. I'm trying to instil in dd that your friends shouldn't make you sad. She's only 5!

I don't deny that dd is an angel, and we talk about what they say to each other but I'm genuinely shocked at some of the stuff these girls come out with.

Biggest problem with school etc is that the bully usually gets all the sympathy as people try and understand why they are behaving that way and how they can be helped. Particularly at primary school.

Whilst I don't believe in writing kids off or think they should be expelled, they do need a proper punishment alongside working out what problems they have. I've heard, oh x has a bad home life so needs to be given care and attention or y can't help themselves because mum doesn't give her any attention so many times but the child doesn't face any consequences so never learns it's unacceptable.

Most times it's a sherry apology at the child who has been bullied and that's it for the bully but the child who has been bullied gets told to forgive them and try to be friends with them etc. We wouldn't expect an adult to try and be friends with someone who had punched them

I wonder why we as a so called civilized society allow bullying to continue.

IME schools aren't always very good at a sustained, consistent approach to tackling bullying.
There's also the little issue that some of the bullies are very openly charming to those who matter, and have parents who won't accept that their child is a bully.
Victim blaming is also rife, I was told (to the point where I stopped telling anyone) that it was my fault because I needed to lose weight, because I didn't make an effort to fit in etc, and therefore I was asking for it.
Ds1 was bullied from 8, in his case it was dismissed by school because he needed to toughen up, needed to show some resilience (how?), and that it wasn't bullying it was just banter.
Bullying is often easily dismissed, when the focus should be on the victim, how it's affecting them and how to help them get through it (by being zero tolerant about bullying would help).
We've found (with me and with ds1) that schools can be complicit when it comes to bullying. How many AIBU threads are there about a "bullying" SN child (with or without a diagnosis) who desperately needs the support in order to cope and in order to learn better ways to make friends.
Quite often the bullies are valued more than the victims, particularly those from "nice" families who tick all the right boxes, are often good looking, charming, have it all, as opposed to people like me who appear to be irritating or different for whatever reason. I've even heard of a HT explaining to someone that her autistic child was bullied because he was annoying, and could he tone down the autism a bit, for his own sake? FFS, it's no wonder bullies get away with such disgusting behaviour, when teachers take their side!

Angel, actually I partly disagree with that. If SN is at play, repeated punishments do nothing, and every school I have had any involvement with seems unable to support invisible SN, and as a result the child continues through a cycle of treating people badly and being punished, when what they need is understanding, and help to learn these skills.

Although I agree the charming, socially skilled bullies should be punished, but they seem to completely get away with it.

Sometimes envy. Sometimes insecurity. Sometimes acting out their own problems. Sometimes conformity with a culture/being swept along with a group/it seeming too hard or too much hassle to stand out. Sometimes because they simply think it's an OK way to operate. Sometimes just because they can.

Thinking back, through school (lots) and (in one instance) work, I've been on the receiving end of all of these.

*Biggest problem with school etc is that the bully usually gets all the sympathy as people try and understand why they are behaving that way and how they can be helped. Particularly at primary school.

Whilst I don't believe in writing kids off or think they should be expelled, they do need a proper punishment alongside working out what problems they have. I've heard, oh x has a bad home life so needs to be given care and attention or y can't help themselves because mum doesn't give her any attention so many times but the child doesn't face any consequences so never learns it's unacceptable.*

YY to this. When I was at secondary school being bullied, the teacher told me that the bully had a bad home life where she was mistreated by her father so I should be more understanding. I was basically told not to report her as if she got suspended then she'd be punished at home. First, I should never have been told that information and made to keep her secret. Secondly, whilst her home life was a awful and a reason for her treatment of me, it shouldn't have been an excuse- her life being a misery didn't mean mine should be too- her life didn't trump mine. Thirdly, she was caught bullying me later by a teacher (I didn't report it) and was permanently suspended so I ended up with guilt that I had somehow caused her life to get worse.

Cloud has put it so much better than I did.

And burn this is exactly what I mean, it's so unfair to the victim.

My DS was bullied for a short while but weirdly was never bothered by it even though I was angry about it. I complained to school and was told they would speak to the bully but he I had poor impulse control and couldn't help it.

Then bully made the mistake of pushing DS little sister over on purpose. DS went crazy and punched the bully a couple of times before I could intervene. Funnily enough, the bully suddenly discovered that he didn't have a problem controlling those impulses anymore.

No, violence is not the answer but just excusing it because of other issues isn't the answer either.

FWIW, both my older kids have had (fairly minor and short-lived) phases of picking on other kids in their early years at school. When I found out a ton of bricks had nothing on me. They soon became aware that it was, in our view, one of the worst things they could do. I think/hope this went some way towards addressing the lack of strong messages from the rather lax culture in schools where we are.

Later, at secondary, dc1 was bullied and it only came out when he reacted very strongly to yet another incident. He'd told us nothing. The school was - rather surprisingly tbh - very on the ball about it and made sure the bullies knew the unacceptability of their behaviour. Dc2 has also been picked on, but due to differences in class dynamic that settled. And it never really crossed the line into systematic bullying.

I think the concept of a line - a very firm and clear boundary beyond which behaviour is absolutely unacceptable - that is visible to all is key to dealing with bullying in school situations (the subtleties of work life make bullying among adults much more difficult to handle, IMO and E). So victims know they do not have to put up with bullying behaviour and bullies know what consequences there will be. Mild argy-bargy or friendship upsets can be dealt with by talking with all concerned. Bullying is a no-go and must be tackled as robustly as incidents of violence. I think too often that line is not there. Institutional and societal cultures make it easy to victim-blame as default, because we have generations of experience of being encouraged to conform and are all at some level trained to see the non-conformer as the problem. It is also easier to tackle and pressure the one seen as weak. (This is part of the menace of the high-achieving, popular, socially adept bully).

I am so sorry for all who have been targets of bullies.

Cagliostro I hope you reported to Ofsted the head who said your son would not get bullied if he spoke 'properly'. A head on a school tour once suggested to me children were sometimes bullied because they in some way asked for it by being the sort of child who others picked on. I, naturally, did not choose that school. Fucking idiot!

For children I would say it comes mainly from boredom and just enjoying it. There's lots of theories why a person might be more disposed to bully but ultimately, as a person who was bullied, my observations were that the people doing it were bored and bullying gave them a buzz. Even when threatened with punishment they couldn't leave the victim alone because they just enjoyed it so much.

In adults I think jealously or feeling your position is threatened in some way is the most likely reason.

I don't know. I think some people are naturally self-centred and quite sadistic. They are usually the ringleaders. I think it is myth that these people are unhappy, insecure etc. Some are, some just enjoy the feeling of belittling others and that doesn't go away in adulthood (workplace bullies for example). They probably have parents who exhibit the same tendencies and are intolerant of differences etc. They get off on other people admiring them as well.

I think the hangers-on are basically insecure. They are doing it to win the approval of the ringleaders. They know that they are likely to be a target unless they join in. I have much more sympathy for the hangers-on. Sometimes the hangers on have been targets of bullies in the past and this is their chance to be part of the 'cool' gang that they were never allowed to join before. So they try to copy the behaviour of the cool people.

Angelicinnocent I'm so proud of your son. Shame it took him to find his fists but so glad that we can be fierce if the right buttons are pushed.

My therapist remarked of me being bullied in school that many children who are bullied or bullies have troubled home lives with violent, controlling or dysfunctional parents, and that the kids end up recreating that family situation in their "relationships" by bullying or being bullied - the bullies come in and enjoy having power over someone else for once, the bullied have something about their demeanour that singles them out as easy to bully. Why some little kids respond by wanting to bully and some respond by wanting a nice quiet life I don't know. It's also weird to me that there are kids with perfectly happy home lives like you OP that get picked on, but I guess there are other things that mark you out as easy to bully like you say, like the accent or whatever. And then once you've been bullied as a little kid in school I guess you are marked in the same way as us who were also bullied at home.
My main school bully grew up a bit and by the end of school we were civil - once or twice we got to talk a bit in English and drama and copped on to the fact that we had quite a lot in common. Her life has turned into a bit of a car crash in recent years (don't want to give details as she ended up in the paper) and I mostly just felt sorry. I would probably feel differently if she'd done marvellously well though

Honestly, I think because it gives them a social advantage that pays off very handsomely. They assert their dominance and have lots of friends because people would rather be in the bullies gang than the one who is bullied. And they all convince themselves (them and their friends) that the victim deserves it, that they are not bullies but are just dispensing justice.

It would be nice if the fantasy people would reject bullying and stand up to it were true, but most don't and certainly not enough people to make it stop.

And they keep on doing it through work or school gates as Mums with the same results every time - they get power and social cachet. They're normally very manipulative and can turn it 100% to their advantage and get away with it. They know who is vulnerable to target.

They do it because it works and rarely has any comeback.

Out of interest, if your child was being bullied and the school was pretty much ignoring it, how many of you would condone the "if he/she hits you then you should hit them back" approach? I'm just thinking back to when I was bullied at school and my dad got fed up with the school doing absolutely nothing, so he told me to fight back. I'm not sure if it was the right advice or not, although it did give me some comfort knowing that if I did get physical back (which was not in my nature) that I wouldn't be reprimanded by my parents for it.

Currently 8 months pregnant and the thought of my little girl being bullied when she eventually goes to school just kills me cos I know how soul destroying it really is.

Kids who have been bullied themselves and do it to feel the power/in an effort to not be bullied again themselves
Those who have witnessed emotional abuse or violence at home - it has become the norm
Those who have not been taught/modelled appropriate social skills (inc those who have experienced neglect or parents who have been intoxicated/unavailable)
Those whose parents are not giving them appropriate advice or guidance when it comes to friendships
Often where it is physical, children who aren't able to articulate effectively (sometimes diagnosed/undiagnosed SCLN)

As a school, the biggest barrier is the bully's parents not accepting what their child is doing/not thinking it is wrong. Urgh.

There's also a 'thing' with girls, whereby they're so (subconsciously?) scared of being the one who gets left out, that they almost take turns excluding each other. Worse at start of secondary age when they're feeling insecure and new friendships are being made. I read a really good article a while back about it, will see if I can dig it out.

It can also be difficult to know who the bully is.

I have seen various children that claim to have been bullied but are if fact the actual bully.

And then there is the bully that controls from the shadows, directing different minions to bully in a slightly different way.

Some bullying is insidiously sneaky and a huge problem to stop as the main bully is rarely the one that is punished.

I was bullied at primary school by teachers and pupils. I lived in a very, very small village (only 6 girls in my year) and had a different home set up to everyone else. This marked me out, unfortunately. I wasn't the only one to be bullied, there were a couple of other kids too. All because for whatever reason, we didn't fit.

I'll never forgive the teacher though. Mrs Jackson, I mean you.

Because they're evil wicked shits

^
This.

BlackSax not true at all.

Perhaps SOME are what you say but not all.

I was bullied from reception to year 6. About 7 years later i bumped into one of the bullies. I was going to turn around and walk away and thought, NO! Im a grown woman and can stand up for myself. Well he clocked me. Came over said hello was very nice so i asked how life was etc all quite normal. He then apologised for being horrid to me and wished me all the luck in the world. Was one of the happiest days of my life before my kids were born. I was happy it was aknowledged and had an apology