To not pay this childminding bill

[Ellie6578]

My one year old goes to a childminder 4 days a week whilst I'm working since October last year, I've had no issues so far.

My dd visits her dad for 2 weeks every 6 weeks, so she doesn't go to the childminder during these times (he lives up north and I'm down south) however I understand that I still have to pay for her missed days in order to secure her place (her dad pays for these 2 weeks of missed time) and that's fine as my contract states I have to pay for 4 days a week even if my dd doesn't attend.

She came back this week after only 4 days of being with her dad unlike the normal 14 days. This was because her dad had to go to Germany for a few days for work and my little girl really would not settle with his mum.

I messaged my childminder and said my dd had come home early and would she be able to have her tomorrow as normal. My childminder stated she could not have her for another 4 days as she had taken in another child for childcare which took up my daughters space. Ok I thought, my mum took time off work to look after her.

I got the invoice yesterday and I've been charged for those 4 days even though I was told my daughter couldn't go in because she had filled her space! So if I paid for it, the Childminder's earning double for half the work. Aibu not to pay for those 4 days?!

If they mess me about in the way you describe, then I give notice and offer the place to a family that won't treat me so disrespectfully.

People are entitled to book holidays at the last minute, take days off with the children for other reasons and children are sometimes sick. You can't demand that they give you 48 hours notice that their children won't be in.

Unfortunately this is the way most childminding contracts work. Both sides need to give notice of holidays or attendance. You didn't give her notice that your child would be attending.
It would be kind of her to allow you to not pay since the space was no longer available, but ultimately she is a business.
I had 2 of my minded children book a holiday for the same day. Doing so meant that I wasn't working and my mum offered to treat us to a spa weekend which was lovely and wouldn't have been possible if I hadn't had the friday off work due to travel time, picking my mum up etc.
On the Thursday, one of the parents turned around and said that actually she did need me. I said I'd made plans and she said she wasn't prepared to pay since the childcare wasn't available. However, I was really struggling financially and I would never have booked the day off myself as I couldn't afford to not earn that day. My mum and I ended up not going away as I really couldn't afford to lose the £40 at that time.
My point is that notice is there for a reason, and the childminder was doing the other parent a favour by agreeing to have their child. It wouldn't make sense for her to do so without you paying, as otherwise she might as well have just made the most of having one less child.

I can't actually believe there is debate over this. I pay for childcare that 99% of the time I don't use. I do it because my ex is somewhat unreliable and my work is inflexible. I pay for it so that if necessary, at the 11 th hour, I have childcare. I don't pay for it with the expectation that the provider will not make the space available to me when I need it.

OP - find another childminder. You shouldn't have to pay and if you do, you really should vote with your feet.

It would be kind of her to allow you to not pay since the space was no longer available, but ultimately she is a business

It's not kind, it's just not actively cheating your clients!

My nursery did this to me once - after that I never told them when I was taking DD out for a holiday. We were just no shows from that point on.

It's simple. If i pay for something I expect to use it.
Pay for a car park permit, expect a space.
Pay rent for a house, exlect my house not be let out when I'm in holiday
Pay a childminder, expect a space for my child

What the childminder has done is taken payment for a service that's not been provided. It's like me paying a cleaner to not clean my house.

A reasonable retainer fee is fine (and in that situation theyd be unreasonable to want a last min place), but charging parent 1 the fees knowing they arent around and then booking in and charging parent 2 the same fees is cheeky. The thing with being cheeky is soemtimes it catches you up, like when a customer pays for a service and expects to be able to use it.

This same thing happened to me once, only with a hotel. My husband paid for a work contact visiting London to stay at a ridiculously expensive hotel and then at the last minute, the guy said he wasn't coming.

My husband tried to cancel the reservation, only to be told that it was too late, they would charge for the no-show.

Some time later I said, hang on, we're going to go and stay in the hotel room tonight!

So my husband called the hotel, they said they had already sold the room so we couldn't have it. My husband said fine, give me the money back. They said sorry, we can't do that.

Husband had a word with the manager, the room became available, and we had a lovely evening.

Unfortunately this is the way most childminding contracts work. Both sides need to give notice of holidays or attendance.

Why would someone need to give notice that they don't require your services if they have to pay you anyway?!!! This kind of thing is one of the reasons I didn't use a childminder. The contract terms often seem so unfair and ridiculous. I can't imagine another business demanding 48 hours notice that their services weren't going to be required if the client had to pay anyway.

Verycunning, thanks it came up after I'd tapped out my long winded comment, plus I was being particularly unobservent

Roomster101 They're perfectly at liberty to find another childcarer that will accommodate a casual arrangement of last minute changes of plan. As I say, I prefer to work with parents who have more respect for me and the service I provide.

Sickness is an unforeseen circumstance and no-one expects notice for that. I'm glad you made the point since some parents believe childminders should never be ill without notice.

fia101

Dont make sweeping generalisations.

Neither myself or any child minder I know has ever made a clients life difficult, never mind out of some grudge.

CM had no right to resell the space when OP was paying for it. The whole point of paying for the space whether you need it or not is that its there IF you do need it.

Its like someone buying a loaf of bread in a shop and the shop taking it back off you and reselling it to the person behind you without a refund. You have paid for something you wanted but ended up with nothing.

As cm has broken the contract with op, trying to make op pay is unreasonable and not enforceable in court.

They are perfectly at liberty to find a childminder who isn't cheating them and overcharging, yes.
Except you are saying such cheating overcharging clauses are standard?

Unfortunately this is the way most childminding contracts work. Both sides need to give notice of holidays or attendance.

If you're paying for something, there is no requirement to give notice. I don't give my cleaner notice that I'm going on holiday - I simply text her on the day that she's meant to turn up and tell her that she has the day off. She hardly gets in a huff about it.

Why? Because I book activities for my children to go go on that i pay for. This week I paid £28 for my 5 mindees to go trampolining. I booked two days in advance and had that parent had already known that their child wouldn't be attending I would have been pretty pissed.
Doing a 'no show' is an absolutely ridiculous idea and if my mindees just didn't show up whenever they pleased I would be terminating contacts pretty quick. We wait in for children to arrive. The first child arrives at my setting at 7am and the last arrives at 9am. That is two hours that the children are stuck inside whilst children arrive. If I had to wait even longer for a parent who just didn't feel like telling me they weren't attending I'd be annoyed.
I also plan activities, outings, my entire day based on what children I have. We might choose to go to a specific place because I have a baby on that day. Again, if it's a place that I wouldn't attend without said baby I'd be annoyed if the parents knew they weren't coming and just didn't let me know so I'd have to rearrange my day.

When I have children of different ages I need to get highchairs out, rotate toys, put different car seats in the car, prepare different meals. Of course I need to know which children are attending.

Roomster101 They're perfectly at liberty to find another childcarer that will accommodate a casual arrangement of last minute changes of plan. As I say, I prefer to work with parents who have more respect for me and the service I provide.

I don't think any other business including a nursery would see it as "disrespectful" not to given 48 hours notice that their services weren't required if they were going to be paid anyway. The fact that you are able to get away with ridiculous contract terms in the first place suggests childminders are in short supply in your area and they aren't really "at liberty" to find another childcarer.

Dog but you would be forcing parents into being cautious about giving you any notice if you threaten to resell their places/close your setting while still charging them for the space.

I can't believe anyone still thinks what the cm did is ok! Those who are banging on about the terms of the contract - what's your view on this?:

The child's space is paid for full time continuously. Most of the time it's used; sometimes that pay holds it open. When the parent of the other child with high needs requested a space, did the cm have an available space to sell her?

Contractually speaking, its pretty damn obvious the answer is no. She doesn't have a space because the space is not vacant. It's paid for as space held open. Is anyone seriously saying they can't see the difference between a vacant space, and a space paid in full and help open. A vacant space would be one which hasn't already been booked and paid for.

It seems to me the person in breach of contract is the cm because she's sold a space that wasn't available to sell.

When I have children of different ages I need to get highchairs out, rotate toys, put different car seats in the car, prepare different meals. Of course I need to know which children are attending.

It doesn't take 48 hours to put highchairs out or rotate toys. Considering that you will have been paid for the meal I don't think you can complain about time wasted doing that (if any) because your weren't given enough notice.

"Why would someone need to give notice that they don't require your services if they have to pay you anyway?!!! "

Ok, let me give you some examples that will explain why we need notice.

My DH used to arrive to collect a child from school, only to be told "they're on holiday! Didn't they bother telling you??" Yes, that one happened often; yes, we gave notice.

I booked tickets for an event that I knew a child would love. We planned that I would take her and DH would stay with the others. We made arrangements to accommodate this, only to be told the evening before "oh, she's not with you tomorrow".

One child has allergies, another is intolerant to dairy. I carefully plan the menu and have to buy in expensive dairy replacements, only to be told the dairy intolerant child isn't coming this week. The dairy replacement goes off before he returns.

I plan to take the children to an event, only to be told that one will be late in the morning because they have an appointment.

Once or twice, it's one of those things. Continually, then they can find someone else to mess about.

And Roomster I insist on 48 hours notice. Stop assuming that everyone else does!

Tanith, the OP informed the cm she would be using her (already booked) days as soon as she knew the circumstances had changed. The Cm said she'd given the OPs dd's space to someone else (which is bad enough as it wasn't contractually available to give) but then had the cheek to expect the OP to pay in full.

Do you honestly think that's fair practice?

" The fact that you are able to get away with ridiculous contract terms in the first place suggests childminders are in short supply in your area and they aren't really "at liberty" to find another childcarer."

It's not a ridiculous contract term and you are trying to criticise childminding settings for not being nursery-like enough for you.

I agree that if you'd paid to "keep a space", that space is yours.

I'd pay for only the days she needs on your 2 weeks from now on.

Your cm is way more than cheeky, she's unscrupulous and is taking your money Knowing there isn't a place for your child.

Tanith I'm not suggesting that people don't tell you at all. I am saying that they shouldn't have to give you 48 hours notice. If they told you the night before or first thing that morning it would prevent your DH turning up to the school unnecessarily. If you had booked tickets for an event a child would love, why didn't you tell the parents in the first place?? Then presumably they wouldn't have cancelled the night before. You can't complain about food being wasted if parents are paying you for that food.