To think that if you haven't booked a seat on a busy train

[MrsSchadenfreude]

You don't stand huffing loudly about young people having no manners and children should be sitting on their parents' laps, and leaning heavily on people who have reserved seats? Train to Cornwall, Bank Holiday weekend, was never going to be empty.

I agree on a Saturday it is unlikely that the person reserving the seat wont turn up. But during the week there is every chance. When travelling for work my tickets are valid for any train but the system forces you to make a seat reservation
So i guess which train i might be on. If i am not or my plans change there is no way i can cancel the reservation. Equally i will sit in a reserved seat if, for example, its reserved from a station further down the line but will have everything ready to move if someone claims it.

seems to me the kids learning to be entitled, pampered selfish little brats

So it's more entitled for a child to have a seat that's been paid for (and your odd comment about them not even paying because the parents did is nonsense) than another adult to require a kid to move because they haven't booked?

I would always move for someone who needed a seat. Being older isn't an automatic need

When travelling long distance I buy a seat for my toddler even though she's under-five (I have a family railcard for this purpose) so that she has the space to sit next to me, can colour or play with her play doh and also have a sleep in her seat as you have to collapse pushchairs on long distance services. I book tickets to coincide with naptime, which makes the whole journey easier for both us and the people around us. So far there hasn't been a problem with people sitting in our reserved seats but I wouldn't hesitate to ask them to move if there were.
I've also been the heavily pregnant person on the train and so always booked a seat so I have zero sympathy for someone travelling without booking. If you know you can't stand for the journey then book a seat! I would not move my child from her seat to make room for you and she's too little to be sat next to a stranger whilst I stand.

'but at the risk of going against the tide and sounding old fashioned seems to me the kids learning to be entitled, pampered selfish little brats!!!'

Seems to me plenty of adults feel entitled to something that's not theirs by virtue of their age, how very pampered and selfish As for sitting an 11-year-old on one's lap, I couldn't even fit my nearly 9-year-old on mine. He's nearly 5ft tall and has a far bigger build than I have.

AJPTaylor
I've done that.
If a seat is empty but with a reservation ticket starting 3 stations back then I'll sit in it because clearly that person hasn't turned up. I'm not standing when there's an empty seat just to feel virtuous.
If there's a seat with a reservation starting in 2 hours time then it's free when I get on the train and I'll sit in it for 2 hours. Someone comes down looking for the seat with tickets, I always make eye contact and if they're near me I always ask 'am I in your seats? They were empty from 'my station' to here.' Other times, nobody turns up so that's a bonus.

None of that is chancing. It's sitting in vacant seats which are vacant. Someone having a reservation means it is booked from their station. It doesn't mean keep it empty before that and it doesn't mean we should leave a seat empty when someone's clearly not got on the train.

I definitely think it's unfair to judge people without a reserved seat on a train. My office often book me a ticket to somewhere in the country at the last minute when it's too late to reserve a seat. It's not poor planning it's the nature of my job...

I don't judge people who don't book a seat anymore than assume one is more entitled to sit down based on what fare they may have/may not have paid. Do people really sit in crowded carriages weighing up who may have paid what?

problem
I don't judge people who havent booked seats (done it my self many a time).

I judge people qho havent booked a seat and then sit in other people's seats/ get arsey when asked to move / think that because they are an adult that a chils witj a pre booked seat should move for them etc.

I'm making my return journey by train today, having travelled up on Friday. Obviously being the bank holiday weekend the trains will be rammed.

My journey involves two trains - the first train operator is London Midland which as was mentioned up thread doesn't do seat reservations (there is no alternative train operator on this particular line) and so we're just going to turn up at the station early (we're getting on at the first stop) and hope for the best. The second journey is with virgin and we have seats reserved for DH and I.

We're also travelling with dd who is 4.5. If we are lucky enough to get an extra unreserved seat and no adults are standing she will sit in it. But if (as will be more likely) the trains will be busy she will sit on our laps or one of us will give us her seat and we'll stand. But once she turns 5 we will be paying for a seat and reservation where possible (unfortunately not on London midland) so where she has a seat reserved we won't be moving her unless there are extenuating circumstances (elderly or pregnant passengers etc)

It's fine if peeps sit in a reserved seat with the intention of moving gracefully if reservee's arrive, but tossers out to poach can huff, puff & piss off out of them & take their feckin bad attitude somewhere else!

I am feeling angry...
Having just arrived in London on a nightmare overnight train journey on Caledonian Sleeper: the whole Z-coach stank of sewage; a jobsworth waitress from hell in the lounge who insinuated DD & I were attempting to Q jump because I asked a question; electrostatic bedding causing all of us to itch & staff wrongly knocking on our door just after I'd got the kids to sleep

Has anyone else suffered on this sleeper?

people do physically lean on each other on trains, if they are standing

someone once did it to me and I asked her to stop. She started yelling at me saying I was lucky to have a seat at all. I said I wasn't. I'd got on the train at an earlier stop and paid more for my ticket than she did. She wasn't very happy with me. But she'd got on at a station where there are trains every 3-5 minutes in rush hour. My train had 5 carriages, she could have waited for one with 12 and plenty of seats at the back.

As for a bank holiday train, well if you want a seat you reserve. That's common sense isn't it?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sitting in an unoccupied reserved seat. As someone upthread said, there are a number of websites that sell flexible open tickets but make you pick a train and have booked seats on it. Obviously half the time you then go on a different train. The other side of this is that a lot of the prebooked seats are going to be left empty, so obviously they are fair game to sit in so long as you cheerfully and swiftly vacate the seat the moment its rightful occupant turns up.

TBF about reserving, you can't always.

I've booked a longish journey for a couple of weeks' time and haven't been/couldn't be allocated specific seats; my conditions state that I can sit in 'any vacant unreserved seat'.

Fine if the train isn't busy. Potential nightmare if it is. And this is a 2-hour journey, not a half-hour commute.

As a commuter who spends an absolute fortune on an annual travel card, I don't have the option to reserve a seat, so on Friday evenings before a big bank holiday where every single seat on the bastard train is booked, you are likely to hear me muttering. Don't assume that people haven't bothered to book online, some of us don't have the option. I don't think it should be possible to book tickets during peak time, certainly not for the whole train. Don't even get me started on the scum bags who keep their massive suitcases on the seat next to them instead of storing them in the compartment at the ends of the carriages. Gargh, commuting is the worst!

But you can book a reserved seat, at the same price and for the same time as the people reserving them do.

You just don't want to because you get cheaper seats by buying an annual travel card.

I can see your point about reserving all the seats on a train though. That seems unfair.

Yes...but a fair few middle distance trains don't allow reservations.

This is a particular beef of medium distance commuters - particularly at London Kings Cross - people who take their kids to London during half-term - usually buy the wrong (off peak) ticket, try and get on a rush hour train with Tristan and Charlotte with an "off peak travelcard return" (not valid 4-7pm), then when they finally do get on, they (gasp) realise that the chances, even in the shoulder peak, of getting 4 seats together round a table are non-existent; they then drag their offspring round a museum they have no interest in, make up for it with an eye wateringly expensive burger and chips and vastly overpriced cuddly toy at the Rainforest Cafe, and THEN attempt to catch the train home ca. 5pm with the same offpeak ticket, and ending up screaming at the ticket barrier staff "Do you SERIOUSLY expect me to wait 2 hours before I come back?" (no, they expect you to buy the right ticket in the first place), and then wander the length of an 8 or 12 carriage train bewailing the fact that - yes, they can't get 4 seats together on a crowded rush hour train, and end up wandering up to the front, pass-agging commuters declaiming loudly that "darling, it does look as if people are too rude to allow us to sit together", and, inevitably "this is the last time - the LAST time - we are ever taking the train".

In my experience there are a lot of chancers on busy trains. They'll sit in a reserved seat in the hope a) the passenger won't turn up or b) will get on the train but be too afraid to say anything.

A reserved seat is sold with EVERY Virgin Trains ticket booked in advance - even completely open ones. I catch a train to work and home on VT East Coast most days, I try and sit in an unreserved seat, but may 50% of the time there are none. and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times someone has reserved the seat I am sitting in. Am I (and hundreds of other commuters) going to stand for 25 minutes on the off chance they might turn up?

No.

YANBU OP but I'm useless! My bum would literally burn if I was sat down and an elderly person was stood next to me! I couldn't stay seated but that was drilled into me when younger. My friend and I stood for an elderly couple on the way to a hen doo in another city, they were so greatful and actually really good sports sat in middle of loads of rowdy hens! Don't judge all old ppl as miseries some are very nice.

But you can book a reserved seat, at the same price and for the same time as the people reserving them do. You just don't want to because you get cheaper seats by buying an annual travel card.

Yes, but the people reserving them are paying as a one-off, not doing the journey every day. If someone has a season ticket & always gets the same trains, it would be fairer if they could pay a bit extra & reserve a seat.

Prideinmyplace2 I've been on the sleeper many, many times and could regale you with lots of stories of 'interesting' journeys taken on it. 99% of the problems due to heating issues. Though there was one time we couldn't get up the hill at Birnam and Dunkeld so had to wait on the platform in the freezing cold to wait for a Really Useful Engine to turn up (I really wanted it to be Thomas!).

I've generally found the staff to be really useful. There was one guard who refused to come and do anything about the lack of heating last year, and when we found another he was horrified that, not only was the seated carriage so cold, but that there was a young child in there and his colleague had done nothing about it. He, and another chap many years ago, went out of their way to help.

But yes, things go wrong more often than they go right. I had hoped for an improvement when Serco took over the franchise, but haven't seen it yet. Maybe when we get the new rolling stock.....?

Out of interest, which route were you on?

I pay an absolute fortune for my season ticket and it does my head in to get on the train and find all the seats reserved. It causes total chaos with people milling around looking for 'their' seat, physically climbing over people in the aisles to get to their chairs at the other end of the train and then demanding people get out of 'their' seat, often without bothering to say please.

Yes, I am another commuter who plays 'will someone be sitting in this seat' chair roulette on a daily basis.

I think there should be far fewer seats reserved at rush hour. It isn't right that some people who get on the train first can't sit down, when last minute wonders saunter on, climb over people and get a special chair just for them.

My service wouldn't run without commuters like me paying £5k per year. It would be nice not to be given the worst service because I'm a captive market with no choice over how I travel.

Sorka
I agree that there should be fewer reservations on rush hour trains.

I'd be cross if I'd paid a fortune for a season ticket and then didn't have a seat.

Half the reserved seats on Virgin trains aren't used. Anyone who thinks you are a chancer for sitting in one doesn't really understand rail travel.

Of course you should move if the person who has reserved shows up, cannot believe there are people who refuse!

However I think that the system is ridiculous. Charge a fiver to reserve a seat, or cap the number of seats reserved on any train. It isn't always possible to reserve a seat and where it is a free courtesy provided by the train service, I don't feel that strongly about people's right to sit in their reserved seat. There are plenty of very valid reasons why people who might need a seat haven't booked, surprised by how many people think that it's people just not bothering.

Also where the reservation system on the train has broken so reservations aren't showing, tough shit I reckon.