To want my dad to make a fucking will?

[Lalalax3]

Short history: DM died in 2010, DF (64) got with his partner within three months of her passing. DF owns his house, his partner sold her house and lives with him rent-free. They've been living together for nearly 4 years. My sister and I are very concerned that he has no plan in place in the event of his death.

We're pretty certain his property would automatically go to us, as he and partner are unmarried but surely if she's been living there all this time she may have some claim over it?

Sister has tried to ask dad (gently) to make a will but he just gets very quiet and withdrawn, it is v in line with his behaviour since DM's death to not want to rock the boat and to bury his head in the sand.

But is it time to ask a little less gently? If he wants to leave his partner something that's his choice and I'd respect it, but all I can see is an ugly mess having to be unpicked, with his partner's v interfering family all sticking their noses in.

Perhaps he just cannot face it. Some people think it is tempting fate to make a will and just leave it.

It is such a difficult subject to raise with someone without looking like you are after their money. I lost my Dad in October and he had made a will thank goodness. It is bad enough to deal with Probate etc without having a lolly scramble over the money.

He should make a will but I suspect you won't like the content of the will. Maybe he will marry her, maybe he will live another 10 yrs and they will have been together 14yrs, is that enough for her to get the house?

I know it's all awful and painful to think about but you might need to adjust your expectations of inheritance as it's now more complicated, will or not.

OP, YANBU

Her accounts will be frozen so nothing to pay for her funeral if she doesn't appoint an executor

My Dad's accounts were frozen. The funeral directors will contact the solicitors and ask them if there's enough money to pay for a funeral. If there is, they will go ahead and do the funeral with the bill to be cleared once accounts are not frozen.

If there isn't, then you can request a Council funeral which is free but you can't pick anything and you have to fit in with when the council can cremate them.

My Dad's life insurance was supposed to cover his funeral except it didn't pay out until 6 months after his death but there was enough in his current account to cover funeral costs.

My Dad made a Will after he was diagnosed and only because my Sister made him. He was with my Stepmums for 30 years but not married.

He told the Solicitors what he wanted and although the house was his and to be left to us, the Solicitor said he had to make provision for DSM to live there as she has done for certain number of years.

If your Dad died intestate, his Estate would pass to the eldest child first as that is who his legal next of kin would be, it wouldn't go to both of you. That's also worth considering, as if it went to your sister if she was the eldest, she could choose not to give you anything if she got a bit greedy and saw pound signs.

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Is that enough for her to get the house

Once your married and die, everything goes to the married partner. If they marry and never get a joint bank account, accounts on his name only will still be frozen whereas a joint account, the money all belongs to her and not the estate.

Hi OP, long time lurker here. I know a little bit about this area of law. If your DF doesn't leave a will the rules of intestacy will be applied. There's a useful tool on the gov website that explains how it works (just google intestacy rules). As they are not married, his partner won't inherit under the intestacy rules. She will however fall into a category of person that can make a claim for reasonable financial provision under the Inheritance (Provision for Dependents) Act 1975 if she was co-habiting and/or financially dependent on him in the 2 years prior to his death. She can make this claim irrespective of whether there is a will. People sometimes leave a letter with their will explaining why they have "disinherited" someone as their reasoning is a factor that the courts will look at when making a claim, but it won't necessarily defeat a claim. So in short, making a will leaving everything to his children won't really change anything if you and your sister will inherit anyway as his partner can still try and claim for reasonable financial provision. Whether she'd succeed depends on her financial situation. Most of these claims tend to reach an out of court settlement because it's quicker and cheaper than going to court. These types of claims have been increasing due to second marriages and more co-habiting. A common thing is for someone in your DF's partner's position to be allowed to live in your DF's house under the terms of your DF's will until she dies, and then for the house to go to the children. However, I have seen instances where it is claimed that is not reasonable financial provision and a cash lump sum is also claimed. Hope that explains the situation a bit, I'm sorry that it's not clear cut x

I admit to being slightly surprised by these responses.

I can see nothing wrong with explaining your worries to your father, in particular you would like to be reassured that he had stated what his wishes are so that in the event of his death, no-one would have to scrabble about at a time of great distress to try to work out what the right thing to do is. But that is it

People do NOT 'leave their children in shit' by not leaving a will; it is NOT 'incredibly selfish' to not wish to make a will; they do not 'shit all over their children' in not making provision. The fact people have to face is that they have absolutely no right to inherit unless the property in question was left by a preceding benefactor who made that provision on the making of the gift (in which case, that should happen whether or not there is a will, though even that could be at the discretion of trustees). A person's property is theirs alone to do with as they wish.

On the other hand, there is no obligation on a child to sort out an intestate estate. Most people do, sometimes out of loyalty, sometimes because they have something to gain or they want someone else to gain from it. But no-one can complain that they have had the consequences of intestacy thrust upon them. It only seems to bother people who want something out of the estate and as I noted above, they actually have no right.

So while I think there is nothing wrong with expressing your anxieties, your suggestion that it is appropriate to start cranking up the pressure on your father is most unattractive as it suggests a motive which is some way from pure.

For the record, I have no idea if my mother has a will as I have never assumed it was any of my business or that of my three siblings. If she chose to leave it all to a dog-grooming parlour I would be hugely surprised (she doesn't like dogs) but not the least disappointed as her assets are hers, not mine. She, at 86, is unlikely to last another ten years but that is still no reason for me to go round and bully her...

Britt sorry but you're wrong about eldest inheriting it all. I've recently spent much much time dealing with my uncles ( tiny) estate after he died intestate. The intestacy rules are very clear - they start with the wife ( my uncle was widowed) then go down to his children( he didn't have any) then go to his bothers and sisters. He had three (all dead) so then the children of his brothers and sister were next in line. One brother and one sister had children so his estate was divided into two - one half went to the dead brother's children and one half to the dead sister's children. Each half was then shared equally between the children of that brother or sister. I can't tell you how much time all this took - different organisations have different rules about releasing money, it was a nightmare. There were times when I ended up in tears of rage and frustration and I wasn't grieving as I would have been for a parent.

I think everyone else has answered your question really well but wondered if you had heard of free wills month this October? Might be an excuse to bring it up with him again.

freewillsmonth.org.uk

Meant to say more clearly that but birth order is completely irrelevant

Hupp. I thought your post expressed a very unkind view of people. When my uncle died I had no idea what his finances were . My sister and I immediately agreed that we would pay for his funeral ourselves if there wasn't enough in the estate. We wanted him to have a decent 'send-off' after a long life (98) over half of which was in public service. He died in locally authority funded care. If I had walked away from sorting everything out, who would have done it? I felt a sense of responsibility in setting everything ( which included debts). I'm not virtue signalling ( horrid term) but just saying that not everyone is so selfish and motivated by cash

It might be a consequence of being a lawyer, Bourdic. When people say "It's not about the money" it is almost all about the money!

You will have noticed that I mentioned in my post that some people do indeed sort out an estate for altruistic means - I cited a sense of obligation or wanting others to benefit. In my experience though, anyone contemplating that and wanting to have some guidance from the testator would gently explain their hope that that guidance exists in the form of a will, or at least some written instructions. Where someone is complaining about being 'left in shit' (see up-thread) or is proposing to go and try to strong-arm a person into making a will, alarm bells ring.

I don't do much Court of Protection work but you would be horrified how bitterly and unattractively people fight over the assets of people who are still alive. I dare say the Probate Registry (after they have died) has tales to make your hair stand on end. I say that not because of a grim view of humanity but because of the utter horror of that small section of society who regard other people's money as fair game.

My siblings and I are in a similar situation OP.

My dad does not have a will and seems reluctant to make one. When his mum died she was very organised and clear, she left a will, and letters for her children, yet it was still a mess (people do odd things when they are grieving) and very stressful for my DF.

It's not about what you stand to gain, it's knowing that in a time that you will be grieving, you are not also having to wade through an administrative nightmare. I have younger siblings (under 18) and I worry as he has made no provision for them. To me this is incredibly irresponsible, my DF is a loving and kind man who would happily give a total stranger the shirt from his back but will not make a will and ensure his youngest children are provided for. It's so frustrating.

Hupp of course you will know of terrible tales but many many estates will go nowhere near a lawyer ( like my uncles) because people behave decently. I remember many years ago when my dh's GF died. There was no will and precious little money - his auntie gave us £35 out of that small bit to buy ourselves a fridge( that was the price then) and said ' he would have been pleased for you to have that'. I think it was half the cash left . We always remembered that kindness. But whatever, people who don't leave wills leave trouble in enough cases and these days people's affairs are more complicated and often houses are involved which was less common when I was young.

I don't really know how many times I need to say that I am more than happy for my DF to make provision for his partner in his will. I am. I would respect his choices. What I want is for him to actually make a choice! Rather than leave it for us all to unravel after his death.

It's entirely up to him. I don't think you can push it anymore than you have. As others have said, unless she has contributed then she will have no claim on house although he may want to put it in his will that she can live there for the rest of her life. That's what my grandfather's gf did for him although he ultimately went first.

I would respect his choices. What I want is for him to actually make a choice!

Maybe his choice is for his estate to be divided according to intestacy rules rather than to be forced to quantify allocations during his lifetime that could cause resentment and arguments that he would rather not deal with.

I understand why you want to get this sorted though!

As others have said, unless she has contributed then she will have no claim on house

Sorry, but this is categorically incorrect.

Well tell him that, Lalalax!

Please forgive me if I got the wrong end of the stick, but you did express yourself in a fairly forthright manner. Apart from anything, his partner is vulnerable if there is no will, not because of you and your sibs but because the law does not make very good provision for unmarried partners, even if they have been around for years. He would, presumably, think it was hideous to think that after he died there would have to be lawyers and maybe courts involved whether you liked it or not just to sort out straightforward things that he could deal with simply, now. The Intestacy Rules were not written in contemplation of the sorts of assets that most people in their third age now have. Intestacy in his circumstances has the capacity to hurt an awful lot of people who he loves.

That is the sort of explanation I might suggest!

That's exactly it Todaywashorrible - he doesn't want to have to deal with it. I just find that a bit disappointing really.

Sorry, but this is categorically incorrect.

Really? It was my understanding that if there was no contribution then a claim for implied interest could be made but would be very unlikely to be successful unless there had been a contribution.

I stand corrected though!

Blonde

The claim on his house could basically be in the form of a requirement for continued financial support after his death.

In effect it sounds like he is currently housing her, maybe paying for all her utilities, perhaps this financial support even extends to basics like food and clothing. If you calculate what this amounts to per annum, it's probably quite a bit. Then consider how many years she might survive after his death.

If she brought a successful claim for such continued support after his death under Provision for Family Dependents, then his house, or part of it, as just another asset in his estate, could be awarded to her.

@Lalalax I can't add much to what people have said, except I agree that a new partner is unlikely to inherit over and above the deceased person's children, but is is possible that they could contest it, and be entitled to something, as people have said...

@mummagiles

Ignore the people who are saying your DF's partner would have no claim to the house. She could make a claim under the inheritance (provision for dependants) act as a dependant on the basis she has been maintained by your DF by his provision of accommodation. Her claim on the estate could amount to a sum equal to that which would be necessary to maintain her living standards as immediately prior to your DF's death. There was a case recently where a woman who had been estranged from her mother for decades successfully claimed against her mother's estate

Although I don't think the estranged daughter is a good example of what is going on with the OP, as she was the deceased woman's actual daughter.

To say because he is 'only 64' he doesn't need to make a will yet is one of the daftest things I have read on here in awhile! Sorry, but 64 is NOT young. You're a bloody pensioner FGS. Many people see their health start to deteriorate by their late 60's and early 70's, even when they have had good health for many year prior to that. You'd have to be delusional to think you 'don't need' a will at 64. Especially as the OP's mother died in her late 50's!!!

Re the issue the OP has, I think when someone gets a new partner/new spouse, any assets they had when they met should not go to the new partner/spouse in the event their death, unless they have been together 10 years or more.

I don't particularly think very highly of people getting very sniffy and assuming they have an absolute 'right' to their parents estate, but at the same time, I don't agree for a second that someone should be allowed to meet someone, and inherit everything they and their deceased spouse have worked hard for all their lives, potentially within MONTHS (or several years) of meeting them.

As has been said, this is not what the OP's mother would have wanted.

I know OP, that you said your dad 'wouldn't lie,' but for all you know, his new woman could be controlling him (no matter how nice she seems!) I have seen it happen. Not saying she is a gold digger, but I am very suspicious as to why your dad won't discuss it. You have every right to be worried and suspicious, but if your dad won't discuss it, there is little you can do.