AIBU to be disappointed with Joss Whedon

[BlueKarou]

Yes, I know it's just sleb twaddle, and it doesn't impact my life one bit...

That said, I really thought he was one of the good guys and it turns out he's an entitled cheat, as well as a gaslighting arsehole. It feels like a betrayal - he was supposed to be this feminist creator, this writer of strong women and equality, and it turns out he's just a regular creep.

Kai Cole's article.

It's awful for his wife but didn't really consider him a feminist after watching an episode of Dollhouse- left a nasty taste in my mouth and didn't watch it again. But I will always love Buffy, although that's mainly because of Spike/James Marsters.

Yanbu OP.

@BigDamnHero same here.

@vikingprincess81 you're right on the money about Xander- Whedon has said several times in interviews that he based Xander's character on himself.

Oh yeah, how could I forget Alan Tudyk? But even he can't make Dollhouse work. I think Westworld does a better job of creating and questioning that kind of manufactured world state.

Urgh Ross. Can I add Leonard from TBBT as another 'quiet and bookish does not make you likeable' bloke? He is my least favourite character, possibly ever.

Agreed about Black Widow. He did his very best to destroy that character.
And to be honest, his writing isn't up to par either - most of the words coming out of Natasha's mouth in that film were jarring, they were so badly composed. Coupled with Wonder Woman, and I don't understand how anyone could view him as feminist.

Peachgreen, so does that go for female feminists who cheat on their partners....
.?

@Lauralou69 If their partner is a woman, yes.

The thing is, Whedon's work for a long time was still the best we could get, wasn't it? So sad.

To be a feminist you should surely believe that women should be treated with the same respect that men should be?

Surely you should not objectify women as just something there just to shag to massage your ego?

Surely you would understand that CC was terrified that she would miscarry again and then whole world would know and the shit storm of press that would follow and have a bit of empathy?

You can write as much as you like of what you think people want to hear but if you dont believe it yourself then you are just a liar and a cheat and professing to be something you are not.

Joss Whedon is none of the things he claims to be, he is a sleeze ball of the first degree. He may have written Buffy which was ground breaking but that doesnt alter the fact he is a sleeze ball in real life.

I actually think that the cheating, although reprehensible and nasty, isn't the worst anti-feminist thing about this. He was in charge on sets; writing and directing. And fucking his staff. They presumably knew he was writing and directing. In the Venn diagram of 'fucking women you have a great deal of power over and are your employees' and 'feminist'; those things don't overlap.

Damn. 🙁

@MrsTerryPratchett Yes, I completely agree.

The thing is, Whedon's work for a long time was still the best we could get, wasn't it? So sad.

That's exactly it - our expectations were set at a fairly low bar because that's the best we were given at the time. I must admit I haven't rewatched a lot of his stuff for a while now out of fear it wouldn't stand up to the passage of time.

When I read that I thought immediately of Grey's Anatomy - it has strong (intellectually more than physically) female characters who hold their own alongside their male counterparts. Plus it's a lot better on the racial equality, not perfect, but definitely better than Buffy was. I think BTVS was a brilliant piece of television at the time, but upon re-visiting with 2017 eyes it's not the height of equality.

AnUtterIdiot - yes, definitely have to agree with you there, Jessica Jones is a brilliant example of how to do a female-led show.

in an industry where continuity and looks and stability are everything, being pregnant is a huge change, i'd be pretty fucked off as well

Being fucked off is fair enough. If I was an EP and head writer on a massive tv series and my actress told me she was pregnant 10 weeks after she'd found out and it blew apart all the storylines I'd written I'd be fucked off too. Possibly passively so. But then I'd sit down, work out which of my storylines were salvageable and which weren't. I'd do my re-writes with the best interests of the show in mind. If in my rewrites I decided that the best thing for the show was for the character to die, at a very minimum, I'd have one of my staff contact her agent to break the news to her. I'd probably even get my assistant to buy her a cake and flowers on her last day.

What I wouldn't do is rewrite the season with revenge in mind. I wouldn't torpedo half my character's established personalities just so I could make the actress unhappy. I wouldn't forget to write a satisfying story for a beloved character fans had been following for nearly a decade just so I could mess with her humiliate her further by not letting her know she was fired. Even if I hated her forever for having the audacity to put her family life ahead of my show, I'd put my show ahead of my desire to fuck her about.

Also Charisma turned up for the 20th anniversary so if she was so upset turn up...
Of course she did. It was her biggest, most successful role and she was promoting herself by reminding the world of some of her best work. She now stars in tv movies while he's directed two of ten highest grossing films of all time. She clearly cares about her career and isn't going to let his lack of professionalism undermine her life any more than it already has.

Craftsy, She's also done a number of interviews where she has praised Whedon and that she would love to work with him again.............we need to be careful about what we believe as the truth as it can be manipulated by the media.

@Lauralou69 Yes, because she's a professional. Why are you so desperate to defend him? What about all the other evidence people have raised in this thread?

This is why Wonder Woman had as many females behind the camera as possible. They deliberately set out to make is as female-dominated as possible, so that there would be the minimal male gaze.

It makes it MUCH easier to trust that any feminist messages are genuine ones, and not just a pretense in order to gain approbation and idolization.

And actually, I can't think of a JW production which doesn't have some kind of whore character - so really that shows us all we need to know about his attitude to women.

It's not really evidence is it?? It's heresy, it's tabloid gossip and most importantly it does not mean that all of his ideas and characters are now null and void because he is a cheater. I do not condone the cheating at all but it smacks of a witch hunt. I will continue to enjoy the fruits of his writing, to enjoy the creation of Buffy, Firefly and The cabin in the woods film because he is a good writer and directer. It's the separation of the personal and political. His ex wife is understandably angry, she has a right to be but questioning whether his input into feminist dialogue is now irrelevent because he cheated seems crass. Lots of people cheat, not all of them are evil.

I always assumed that Charisma Carpenter must have had awful morning sickness or some other problem. How she was written out was so clunky and obvious that I thought they must have suddenly just not been able to use her.