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Original poster

AIBU to be disappointed with Joss Whedon

127 replies

BlueKarou · 21/08/2017 11:00

Yes, I know it's just sleb twaddle, and it doesn't impact my life one bit...

That said, I really thought he was one of the good guys and it turns out he's an entitled cheat, as well as a gaslighting arsehole. It feels like a betrayal - he was supposed to be this feminist creator, this writer of strong women and equality, and it turns out he's just a regular creep.

Kai Cole's article.

OP posts:
sweetbitter · 21/08/2017 12:14

I'm not that surprised. I am cynical and think it must be a vast minority of men who stay faithful when they're constantly meeting and working closely with a conveyer belt of beautiful women, a good number of whom are willing to sleep with you for a variety of reasons. Especially when you have the power, lifestyle, money and means to be able to support affairs and keep them as secret as possible.

Doesn't make it right and yeah I guess it's more of a shame given his body of work (I am a massive Buffy fan) and his excuses make him sound like a shit. But I can't get that shocked or disappointed really.

Original poster
BlueKarou · 21/08/2017 12:43

The more I read, the more my heart sinks. There always was something a bit off about how Charisma/Cordelia left Angel. I didn't realise it was that bad.

Then that link, Soren - I started watching Buffy as a geeky young teen, so it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that I would love it. I naively never saw anything other than a kooky group of people and some vampire fighting. I'd like to hope I might have been more critical had it started today.

I think I'd just always decided that he was the pinnacle of equality and female representation in telly, and it just feels a bit shitty to have been wrong all along. But then I guess you never really know anyone fully, especially not celebrities. They're probably all sitting on their own secret shocking behaviour.

OP posts:
JessicaEccles · 21/08/2017 12:50

Look- Buffy is still imho the greatest TV series ever made. If you are looking for perfection in art or life, you are always going to be disappointed. And not able to read/ watch anything ever again.

He always struck me as the classis nerdy guy, not very successful with women who suddenly became a Big Deal and made a bit of an idiot of himself.

AllTheWittyNamesAreGone · 21/08/2017 12:54

Sorry, I can't get past the poster who thought it was Josh Widdacombe...

👏👏👏👏👏👏Fucking brilliant😂😂😂😂

TheHodgeoftheHedge · 21/08/2017 12:58

Well this has fucked me up :(

PrawnTempura · 21/08/2017 13:00

Thanks for the link Soren. Good read.

magicinthenight · 21/08/2017 13:04

God, what wanker :( his poor wife.

Tazerface · 21/08/2017 13:07

The cynic isn't surprised at all. The loudest male feminists are usually the worst.

ThymeLordIsSpartacus · 21/08/2017 13:09

The loudest male feminists are usually the worst

This ^^. I said I didn't like Joss Whedon, and his fake feminism, on reddit and my god they ripped me to bits! I'm not surprised to hear any of this.

StoatofDisarray · 21/08/2017 13:10

I'm utterly unsurprised, tbh. Joss Whedon is a self-proclaimed feminist who can only write women as a variation on one of three archetypes: strong asskicker (Buffy, Faith, Zoe), cute nerd (Willow, Kaylee, Fred, Penny) or mysterious ethereal beauty (Inara, River, Dawn). He fired Charisma Carpenter because she got pregnant (and referred to her as "that fat pregnant actress" on set) and was annoyed that she waited until her second trimester to tell anyone - despite the fact that she'd had a miscarriage previously and therefore wanted to wait until she was sure. He repeatedly uses rape as a plot device. He refuses to listen to women when they criticise his feminism (he even quit Twitter because of "militant feminists").

I can't sum up my feelings any better than peachgreen did. Perfect comment is perfect! He is and always has been a typical fanboy.

Imbeingunreasonable · 21/08/2017 13:25

Well this is just disappointing Sad

Feel so bad for his wife. I had no idea Charisma was so poorly treated.

I still think Firefly is one of the greatest to shows ever and should never have been canned.

That said, Whedon is just a regular, run-of-the-mill asshat!

EdmundCleverClogs · 21/08/2017 13:29

Disappointing but in no way unsurprising. I never really 'got' his God of the Geeks status, though was a huge Buffy fan. I never realised how badly he treated CC though, that's utterly disgusting.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 21/08/2017 13:30

He made the program 'dollhouse'

Put the nail in the coffin of his strong women schtick for me

peachgreen · 21/08/2017 13:42

(i'm only commenting on the first article and from posts above, again i dont know much about JW)

Hmm

Maybe go and do a bit of reading before you defend him. I can't understand why people do this!

MattBerrysHair · 21/08/2017 13:45

I'm gutted. What a self-righteous arsehole Angry

TheHeraldOfAndraste · 21/08/2017 13:57

I'm gad to find others who didn't like dollhouse. The premise of the series was just awful and felt at odds with his feminist persona. Women as puppets/playthings who can have their minds wiped? Just eeew. And I know there was the male doll, Victor. But to me that reeked of tokenism.

I loved Firefly. Was lukewarm on Buffy. Hated Dollhouse.

TheHeraldOfAndraste · 21/08/2017 13:57

*glad.

ReadyPlayer1 · 21/08/2017 14:14

I always hated Xander in Buffy even before I knew about Nice Guys. Am starting to think now that Xander was heavily based on JW* himself.

Joss Whedon that is, not Josh Widdecombe Wink

Scoobygang7 · 21/08/2017 14:18

@TheHeraldOfAndraste victor was the second male doll. Alpha the main antagonist was the first male doll.

Reading the article above has definitely given me food for thought. I've been a fan of his work for nearly 20 years and attended conventions relating to them for years. This has totally changed my view on the man, however I will always be grateful for the friends and experiences I've had due to them existing.

I have lost all respect for him as a man, but in a lot of episodes in buffy they covered and very well lots of difficult agendas. That is not totally all down to Joss that is the entire team.

BlackCelebration · 21/08/2017 14:47

I've just looked up Josh Widdecombe 😁 Yep, in my opinion Buffy will always be the greatest TV show ever and Angel second, thanks to the collaborative efforts of hundreds of extremely talented people who worked on the show. Like many others here, I long ago stopped believing Joss was a feminist after his absolutely disgusting treatment of Charisma Carpenter - that alone was enough for me - and of course other points so well raised here; .i.e the shutting down of feminists, Dollhouse, 'types' of women he writes and rape as a constant. What a shame. What a tool.

vikingprincess81 · 21/08/2017 15:08

Always loved Buffy, but yes, Xander always made me feel ick - only just realising why that is. The 'nice guy' character Hmm
It's sad, as I've always read that quote of his (you know the Pinterest one!) about needing and writing strong female leads. I think somewhere near 90ish% of the episodes pass the Beschdel test (but so does 50SOG so that's not always a great accolade!) and the female friendship is good to see (it has flaws but it endures) but it sounds like it was all lip service. Real shame Confused

Lauralou69 · 21/08/2017 15:24

Sorry but this is only one side of the story, his wifes and though I obviously don't agree with cheating does it really stop him being a feminist?? Are feminists that cheat or have a different brand of feminism not feminists?? Buffy is an iconic character, not without flaws obviously but her creation marked a shift in patriarchal thinking and the common trope of the time.......woman as victim. He's a low life cheating scumbag to be sure but I'm not sure all this vitriol is necessary. Feminism isn't a singular idea and it's actually not dependent on the personal behaviour of those that depict it. He's just a nerdy man who found out he was a sought after commodity and thought with his dick and ego......as many men do!

Lauralou69 · 21/08/2017 15:28

Also Charisma turned up for the 20th anniversary so if she was so upset turn up...We need to deal in facts and not Hollywood gossip.

peachgreen · 21/08/2017 15:36

@Lauralou69 You don't think it's hypocritical to be a self-proclaimed feminist when behaving in the way he has? Quite aside from the many, many other things people have pointed out on this thread, he removed his wife's bodily autonomy by having sex with other women behind her back. And to top it all off he had the gall to blame the fact that he cheated on the patriarchy!

There's an argument to be made for separating the art from the artist and I don't think anyone is calling for a boycott of Whedon's work. But he cannot call himself a feminist and behave in the way he does.

PricklyBall · 21/08/2017 15:37

That Mary Sue article a PP linked to upthread nails what always made me uncomfortable with Firefly (which for the most part I did love) - it was the whole "happy hooker as highest calling a woman can have" thing. (Mind you, the Mary Sue usually gets it right!)

Likewise, I always found the Buffy and Angel plot line really disturbing - far too many elements of "a good girl isn't good any more once she's had sex and deserves to be punished for it." I found the whole plot line creepy. I've never entirely bought the "Whedon is a feminist" line myself. He has too many tropes which are not so good (rape as a plot line, women's independent sexuality as the crime that cannot be forgiven, unless of course that independent sexuality takes the form of being a happy hooker in which case all is well).

I think basically he's typical of a certain type of lefty right-on dude-bro who embraces a pick-and-mix version of women's rights insofar as some of them are useful to him as a man.