AIBU to think SAHMs shouldn't put this nonsense on a CV/job application

[windygallows]

In the last year I've recruited for numerous part-time jobs, receiving applications from many women who took time out to be with family and are now returning to work.

Many of the applicants have been straightforward and simply noted on their CV that they have been SAHM - simple.

But increasingly applicants, perhaps based on some guidance from career counsellors or MN, are finding more creative ways to describe their absence from the workforce.

One, we'll call her Mrs Jones, wrote that for 10 years she was employed by the 'Jones family' and that her work involved 'organizing international travel for her family.' Because organizing a holiday is similar to the tasks led by senior executives.

Another wrote a list of every task she did at home from getting groceries to cleaning the house which, while impressive as an exhaustive list, doesn't really mean much when applying to an office-based role. Especially as it's basically a list of everything most employees have to fit in outside of work.

More galling are the claims that women make about the critical role they played - with my favourite being the one who 'Spent 7 years looking after my two children who needed and deserved my attention.'

There is huge value in the work that SAHMs do but please, please don't put this kind of waffle on your CV. You never know if your interview panel will consist of a FT working, single mom like me who finds it pretty insulting that working means her children apparently lost out on 'the attention they needed and deserved.' Urgh.

Binky - I think there is a difference between a SAHP of school age children and a SAHP of pre - school children.

I work school hours so am actually only at work when my children aren't at home for something like 30 days per year.

That seems to be pretty marginal on whether a SAHP would be doing much more than me, although they'd obviously have a much more relaxed time!

No it's not having gone a go at sahms it's saying career break to raise kids is perfectly valid on a CV but listing every chore and claiming it as a job is ill advised

?? a childminder is not "staff" - they are self employed for a start - you purchase their service, you do not act as their employer. (explains some of the posts on childminders though! ). So no, you do not "have staff" if you have a CM, you outsource childcare.

I'm pretty sure that the skills you learn through parenting which may be loosely relevant to the world of work are the same whether you're a SAHP or WOHP. Eg: you may feel you've developed better time management and organisation, but SAHP don't have the monopoly on these things!

I'm struggling to think of anything extra I did while I was at home on maternity leave that I didn't do as a WOHP .... ok i changed more nappies, made more meals (when I went back to work, nursery did lunch) and sang nursery rhymes more frequently... but this is just a matter of quantity of tasks, not doing totally different things.

Actually I was asked questions recently about being a parent. I was asked for examples of resource saving activities I'd done with my kids, and examples of cutting down on waste.

This was for a company with green credentials.

If they had these as interview questions, and they asked specifically about what you had done as a parent, they were on some seriously thin ice, legally. It's not technically illegal to ask if someone has children or intends to have children as part of an interview, but it's very bad practice because it's irrelevant to the hiring decision, and what IS illegal is to use that information in making a hiring decision. So a smart company or interviewer won't raise the question at all - they'll just ask what you have been doing on a career break if you haven't indicated it yourself on the CV/cover letter.

So if they asked a question which was easier for parents to answer than non-parents, they could easily be landed with a complaint of discrimination.

Someone is now going to come on and say "but what is saying SAHPs are more of a risk to hire but discrimination?" It's not the fact that someone has a child/ren which makes them more of a risk in this circumstance, it's the fact they haven't been working, which makes it more likely that they have less relevant or up-to-date skills and experience. It's perfectly legal, and indeed desirable, to make a hiring decision on the basis of who has the most relevant, up to date skills and experience.

Karlos

My point is as above.
I am a wohm, I have 2 jobs, what don't I understand about working?
Our experiences are different and I did much more than your list of what a sahm does. If that had been my life I'd have gone mental
It was my choice what to do, I'm not suggesting it makes me any better btw, and certainly no harder, just different experiences.
Unless school aged or looked after by family yes, wohm have staff, most wohm I know use childcare of some description.

People apply to companies with very different experiences. Once you've got beyond whether or not they can demonstrate the basic person specification, you're looking at finding out about them based on their own experiences

If someone spent a gap year in Thailand, was a SAHM, worked in an unrelated profession or whatever, I would still want to hear about those things because it gives you an idea of that person's approach to problem solving, communication skills, team work etc.

Writing trite things about anything on a CV isn't helpful, but being a SAHM isn't some dark secret that shouldn't be talked about when answering interview questions.

KurriKurri
No quantity is a factor too, actual amount of time spent doing something you may not actually have chosen to do, but have to for financial reasons, long stretches with small children are often harder than short stretches when you have had time away, using your skill set, having adult conversations etc.

There are prod and cons in both directions - don't dismiss and diminish other people's experience because it is not the same as your.

I'm not diminishing anyone's experiences. I'm relating this purely to the process of applying for jobs. Yes, it may be 'harder' to do something you didn't choose to do for a longer period of time, but that matters not one jot to a prospective employer. It really is necessary to look at your experience objectively and I think this is one of the problems on this thread. SAHMs looking to get back into paid work want their SAHM 'work' to be valued by prospective employers but the way to do that is to look objectively at it and articulate the measurable benefits, not to bleat on about how it's so much harder doing it 24 hours a day and therefore must be more valuable than the same work carried out for a lesser period of time by a WOHM.

FromAtoB I disagree completely but it seems to me you can't say anything without having a go at SAHM. I have worked, stayed at home during MAT leave and much prefer it wish I could all the time. However when I work I do everything I do when I stay at home I just have a lot less time to do it and a job to tackle as well. I agree the kids aren't there but the housework, cooking, gardening etc all are. I personally don't care what anyone does and as I said I'd 100% prefer to stay at home but as much as I'll get abused for this being a SAHM/D is not a job.

'If they had these as interview questions, and they asked specifically about what you had done as a parent, they were on some seriously thin ice, legally.'

It's about tailoring interview questions to people's experiences.

Gosh no - I do not think my parenting is of higher quality be sure I do it for sustained periods! No way. Lower if anything.

I mean that 10 hours non-stop with young kids is different to a couple of hours. I find mornings a breeze. Late afternoons less so. It's harder work for me at the end of a long shift than the beginning. So a lone parent absolutely does get that at the weekend if no support.

And yes, agree that pre school vs at school is different for sure.

Splitting hairs on the staff point beyondthepage You have help then that you pay for. Same principle.

it's essentially saying I can do everything you can do in 40 fewer hours

Not really. It's just saying, I also know how to change a nappy/cook dinner/calm a tantrum. Someone else does do that for me during the hours I am out of work (even quite possibly does it better - as it happens my nanny does have chef training!) and I have no problem with that. But let's face it, most of these skills are not - in themselves - difficult. Changing 50 nappies is not that dissimilar to changing 5,000. I guess you might shave some time off each change, which will come in very useful when you join the Formula 1 Nappy Changing Pit Crew.

Doing all of this round the clock with no adult company for no formal pay can be emotionally more difficult, no question. That's in part why I don't do it. Being a SAHP can be very demanding, but generally not because the skills and activities that make it up are in themselves particularly difficult.

's belittling because it's essentially saying I can do everything you can do in 40 fewer hours.

That's actually an interesting point. I don't think anyone is saying either working/sahp are better parents
In terms of tasks - laundry, cooking, admin, then yes, I do everything a sahp does. That doesn't take forty hours a week. I probably don't have the time to cook what I want, or to iron, so my housework is lax but fuck that frankly :) that's household admin, not parenting (although I guess it's parenting related.)?

What you do get to do is more of the fun hanging out time. That's something I'd like more of and that's one of the big advantages of being a sahp, as well as being able to attend more school stuff etc.

There are pluses and minuses to both wohp and sahp - I don't think one is inherently better than another, and most people don't have it as a choice. Each family just does the best with what they have.

Well, unless family look after their kids while they're at work, yes I do.

What about school?

One of mine goes to school, and during some of her school hours I work. Yet I doubt her teachers would be impressed with the idea that they're my staff. Although not as peeved as I'd be, since that would then make me responsible for paying them!

And it's not like family looking after children is an unusual thing. Loads of WOHPs work around the other WOHP, even. Not all working parents even have childcare, let alone staff!

It's about tailoring interview questions to people's experiences.

If you had already told them you were a parent, and they asked "How do you save resources etc in your own life? Maybe as a parent?" - fine.

If they asked candidates if they were parents, and/or asked every candidate, "How did you blah blah blah, as a parent?" - not fine. You cannot ask a question which a parent will find easier to answer effectively, and it's really best not to bring being a parent into it at all. A candidate can do that themselves if they want.

it's essentially saying I can do everything you can do in 40 fewer hours

Totally agree, and also it's like saying I do these things like you do go out to work and that's all you do, but space it out more.

These jobs listed by wohm would send me crackers if that's all I'd done for 20 years.
It's fine if you woh and that's what you have time to do, it's everything that's essential covered and a credit to wohm's.
I don't know how some people manage it all tbh.
The fact remains we are all different and attach different values to our time at home and work.

I think I think we basically agree Tiramisu. A WOHP would do all the same tasks at a lesser rate and with bigger gaps inbetween. So in one way they do the same stuff, but in another it's a totally different experience.

In the context of this discussion maybe the statement that they do the same is true. But I was widening it out a bit, because that is not how it is usually said.

Again - the use of the word bleat is diminishing and infantalising. This is what women who try to return to work after being a SAHP face, being relegated to a 'you're not as important as us working parents, don;t you dare imagine what you do is of any value'

I've done both - been a working mother and a SAHM - in terms of skills probably about equal, in terms of tiredness at the end of the day, never getting a day off sick when you are ill, SAHM is tougher IME. I didn't do the same stuff in a shorter time when I was a WM, I did less with my children because there wasn't the time to do all the stuff I did with them when i was at home - that is just a fact. When I got home it was tea then home work then bedtime - all things that were a fairly well organised routine and the easiest part of the day.

I'm not 'bleating' - as I say I've done both, I value both sets of experience, there is no need to put others down to big up your life choice. I don't judge women or men who do either, both are perfectly valid choices, and I don;t think that once you enter the world of work you should never mention skills involved in SAH parenting should the topic arise. Many of the skills I have learnt in raising children (such as negotiation and conflict resolution) are very transferable and I have used them very successfully in adult environments.

'it's really best not to bring being a parent into it at all.'

That's just your opinion though, isn't it?

If a person is being interviewed, they've already talked or written about experiences as a parent that show evidence they have some attributes required for the job, you're going to get better answers from them by asking supplementary questions that bring in an area they're comfortable talking about and can demonstrate skills in.

Otherwise we're going into the territory that if the prospective employee bring up at an interview something done while parenting in answer to a question, that cannot be discussed or used as evidence by the interviewer that the person has the required attributes, which would be discriminatory.

Hobbies, travel, parenting, sports etc are all non paid work activities that get discussed at interviews. For example if someone does sewing that's relevant, but if they are sewing with their child it's not, that would be a ridiculous stance to take.

I know for example that afternoons with the kids at the weekend are fun because I've normally done something without them in the morning. Not always so when I have them in the week.

its fine if you woh and that's what you have time to do

Err sorry, could you clarify? how do people find the time to work?? I dont want to misunderstand here..

'I personally think raising children is the most important job in the world, and a woman choosing to do that makes an important sacrifice that society benefits from in the long term

Please can you explain how society will benefit from your child in the long term more than mine or any other working mothers? I'd really like to know.'

This doesn't follow. She could easily be saying that the work done by SAHP, nannies, childminders and nursery workers is the most important in the world.

Managed to delete WOHP from that list, but should have been included.

I was secretary of the pfa at my dd school for four years whilst a SAHM.

I used/gained a lot of skills (mostly negotiating with precious snowflakes who moaned about not being on their chosen stall at the summer fete). Our very small committee raised on average 30k per year when I stepped in. Increased from circa 5k. I think that's quite an achievement but I am at a loss as where to include this on my c.v. It was like a full time job (and then some!) But would an empployer class it as a hobby or worse think Lemmon drizzle cunt -bin????

I'd class that as voluntary work LEM and include it as such