to let DS do school project on Jack the Ripper?

[soupforbrains]

DS is 10. he is bright, loves reading and is a huge history buff.

Summer homework project is "Choose a famous Victorian to learn about and present what you learn in a creative way".

DS wants to do Jack the Ripper, DS is already aware of Jack the Ripper from the Horrible Histories books and some other kids books/shows which have discussed great unsolved mysteries.

I think this is a fun idea, and together we have discussed presenting the finding on a big board like and investigation/crime board. Obviously there will be some glossing over of the details and clearly we're not about to stick crime scene photos up. We've also discussed looking into the living conditions in the east end of london at the time to give more social history learning to it than just the crimes.

I'm not an idiot and I know that this idea is perhaps a bit risky but so long as we do it in an age appropriate and not over gory manner would IBU to let son do this. Additionally would any teachers out there consider it to be interesting and a bit different from the no doubt countless Isambard Kingdom Brunels which turn up, or a step too far?

Elinor i don't think anyone was lauding his 'achievment' as you do put it. As someone else mentioned earlier, there is a clarity in JtR in the fact that the actions were wholly and completely condemnable. (Whereas some of the 'goodies' of the era also have blots on their records for other actions).

Sashh I think the photos which you are referring to are the mortuary photos rather than the crime scene ones. Only 2 photos were taken of the actual crime scene and both are very graphic.

As mentioned a long time ago we're not pursuing this project, but it's been an interesting debate. I think some groups are talking at cross purposes a little though.

I understand there is one group who feel that young children (of this age I.e. Yr 6) should not be exposed to the gore of the subject.

Another group are saying that you can't treat the topic and the victims with the respect and understanding they deserve if you remove all the gore and violence.

I think that the first group are mostly not suggesting that you should ignore that aspect. They're are just saying that the topic shouldn't be covered until an older age when it can be done in its fullness.

I understand both opinions, however I do think that a satisfactory middle ground can be struck. I believe that it is possible to discuss the serious nature of the poverty, work and lives of the victims and recognise the level of violence committed without dwelling on or focussing on the graphic details and/or goriness. It can be done in a way which promotes the thinking about the serious issues involved without traumatising anyone.

In much the same way as at age 8 I learned of the holocaust and the awful treatment and murder of Jews in concentration camps. I learned and understood the events, I understood the immense horror of the whole and the specific actions. I wasn't however shown photos of particularly gory bodies or injuries which would have unnecessarily promoted gore. Yes it did upset me, obviously, nobody could be unmoved, but it didn't scar or damage or traumatise me. I think that many topics can be handled in the same way.

I'm a bit ...meh...about the comparisons with learning about the holocaust. I'm unable to articulate way precisely....

Perhaps because this project is about a character from the Victorian age so the equivalent would be choosing, say, klaus barbie or mengele as your starting point and using that as a way in perhaps to discuss the war or the Jewish experience.
I feel that would be a weird approach especially for a child.

One difference I see with the way the holocaust is taught is that it is focussed much more on the victims and their experience. I think this focus is correct and helps with the message that the holocaust is a dark moment in history that should never be repeated.

With a lot of popular material on Jack the Ripper, the victims are an afterthought.

Yes tinyhands the Holocaust is actually a very bad comparison but I was struggling to think of another one and as others had used it I just band-waggoned.

Chaz yes I think you're right. Although I think some of that sadly is due to the fact that less is known about them because unfortunately the attitudes at the time to the victims and their social standing etc. meant that not a great deal of care and attention was paid to recording much about their lives, so now we are left with few resources to look at. It's similar to how officially only 6 people died in the Great Fire of London, but that's because only the 'worthy' were reported/recorded. the truth being that we will never really know how many of the poorest, homeless, travellers or just those who had nobody who cared were killed, because the authorities at the time didn't care to take note and now we have no way of knowing.

It's unlikely that anyone would organize late night thrill walks through Auschwitz........

With the Holocaust, the victims are front and centre. With JR they are an afterthought.

I dunno Bert, there were people in the news recently taking grinning selfies there! :(

It's unlikely that anyone would organize late night thrill walks through Auschwitz........

I'm afraid i'd say give it time on that one. Once the war is well over 100 years ago and tourist numbers are dwindling ... I bet someone will come up with the idea of 'The Midnight Mengele' experience.

People already go to gawp and take selfies of themselves in front of the gas chambers, it isn't that big a step.

I was thinking about JtR, and I think someone has already made this point, but i think its really true. He doesn't seem real. He seems such a product of Dickensian London, the gas lamps, the dark alleys the pea soup fog, a man in a top hat and cape swishing through the streets alongside Sweeney Todd, Ebenezer Scrooge and Sherlock Holmes. He's become a legend, rather than a man and that makes him safe and allows people to view him through the prism of the whodunnit rather than through the prism of the brutal murders. As with any good murder mystery, the victims are pretty much incidental.

I think that, just as studies show people feel less empathy for people who don't look like them, that there is a geographical and race element to our levels of empathy, so too we feel less empathy for people who lived a long time ago. The further back you go, the less empathy you feel.

I guess its a terrible indictment of human nature, but what do we do? Stop teaching the more terrible aspects of history because you know people aren't taking it as seriously as they would if it happened today? Then we forget...

Or, let people explore the aspects of history that interest them - for some people that will be reformations and the works of the great worthies but for others that will be the black death, or executions or the ripper murders.

I think my bottom line is - you can't help what you're interested in, but once you've found something that interests you, learn as much as you can about it so you can come to a balanced understanding of the subject. Plus there's no such thing as bad knowledge.

As with any good murder mystery, the victims are pretty much incidental

We are talking about real women who were savagely butchered- not Midsomer Murders.

I would be shocked and disappointed if the best my son could come up with as a Victorian hero was Jack the Ripper and if he did I would veto it.

No one said it was a project on a hero though did they?

As with any good murder mystery, the victims are pretty much incidental
We are talking about real women who were savagely butchered- not Midsomer Murders.

That is the last sentence in a full paragraph about the changing nature of the way we view this crime, and is linked to the way we view history in general - that we fictionalise.
The sentence makes sense in the context of the paragraph it is in.

It is not either an ignorant nor a callous statement, though you have made it look so by taking it out of context. There is no need.

I would be shocked and disappointed if the best my son could come up with as a Victorian hero was Jack the Ripper and if he did I would veto it

Well absolutely. Except the brief for the OP's son was a "famous Victorian" which is slightly different and it is one he came up with himself after reading a children's book.

My mistake "famous Victorian" My other comments stand. I would be disappointed if the best my son could come up with was Jack the Ripper.

I think that, just as studies show people feel less empathy for people who don't look like them, that there is a geographical and race element to our levels of empathy, so too we feel less empathy for people who lived a long time ago. The further back you go, the less empathy you feel

Slavery perhaps? Workhouses? Child labour? The genocide of aboriginal people in North America? The Highland Clearances? They all happened before Jack the Ripper. All still shocking.

I've re- read your analysis. I still think it was callous and flippant.

I'm interested as to what scale and criteria you are using to judge 'best' and also what makes you think this was the 'best' my son 'could come up with' at any rate.

but I shall take note that I should be shocked and disappointed in my son for suggesting a character he had recently read about.

I've been very interested in this debate and the topics which have come from it because it's always interesting to learn and we can all learn from others. You Lass are the first to have brought judgement of my son into it. Please bear in mind that it has already been established that he has changed the subject of his project, and also in the discussions about other suggestions that he has already used many of the other more worthy Victorians, that you would no doubt not be so disappointed by, for other projects.

By all means continue to join the debate about how we present historical events and to what level things should or shouldn't be sanitised and how we can highlight the serious nature of events without making them ghoulish. but I suggest you refrain from judging a 10yo you don't know.

Who has he decided to do his project on?

soup

Can I tell you something? I was your son. Fascinated by the macabre, the terrifying and anything/everything that wasn't traditionally "suitable" for children.

My parents went with it. We had regular open discussions over things I had read, they never censored my reading material. Rather than being "shocked and disappointed" they were proud that my voracious reading meant I wanted knowledge and discussion.

I have grown up to be a fully functional , kind, caring, happy member of society. not killed anyone yet

Try doing something instead on living conditions in the East End during that time. 'People of the Abyss' Jack London.

I'm sure that it would be fun but not very educational. Surely he could pick someone famous for a reason other than murdering prostitutes?

I teach this age group and I guarantee that the other children will ask him a million questions, and then ask the teacher, and then go home and ask their parents.

Hi AntiBloop it's not finalised yet but we have a shortlist of Joseph Bazalgette, Sir John Snow and Robert Peel.

Jaques thanks. I have always had a policy of just talking openly and frankly about things with my son. He's not quite like you in that he's not mostly interested in the macabre and horror so to speak. His main area of interest in the first and second world wars but obviously there is a lot in those which involve what some people might consider 'adult' and questions that would be raised in the mind of a child. He also watches the news with me, which in recent years has probably been more graphic and potentially traumatic and has again sparked a lot of discussion. He's excellent company.

RainyApril why? They won't see it.

Slavery perhaps? Workhouses? Child labour? The genocide of aboriginal people in North America? The Highland Clearances? They all happened before Jack the Ripper. All still shocking.

All terrible, all shocking, but it's very rare that I'm moved to cry for them, if all I'm doing is reading an historical account. Feel for them? yes. Moved to tears? no. Turn it into a television show or a film so i can get to know them and give them a face, then I'll weep buckets. But, then we mustn't make entertainment out of terrible facts of history, or risk not getting across all the underlying social issues, must we?

I cry about things I see on the news,though, and i cry over charity adverts about cancer or refugees. How is it surprising that we feel more empathy for people in the here and now than we do for people who died decades before we were born, often in circumstances we can't really truly begin to comprehend?

Like I said, studies show there is a racial element to the amount of empathy people feel, about real life people suffering today I don't think its especially controversial to posit that there is also a time based element to the amount of empathy we feel.

If we had to feel the same amount of horror and sadness over every tragedy we ever heard about spread over human history, we'd all just be weeping puddles of distress (and you can judge that as callous and flippant as you want, but its true). I bet it's very possible that our ability to separate ourselves from things that happened a long time ago, or very far away, is a defence mechanism for our minds - we wouldn't be able to function otherwise.

I'm afraid I still stand by no such thing as bad knowledge, and if a child shows an interest or starts asking questions - encourage them for Christ's sake!

Sounds like your ds and my ds would be great friends - same age and same interest!! Ds is totally obsessed with the two world wars

Ooh how exciting.

You could do a kind of crime thing as well as we don't actually know who he is, so your son could present the different suspects.

Hello grooves yes that was the original plan. I thought it could be done sensitively and also be fun but we've taken a different route now as if nothing else the reactions of others on here have suggested that my son himself may be judged harshly for his interest in the topic.

Op if your son loves an unsolved mystery - the Punt PI podcast from the BBC has lots of unexplained mysteries for him to get his teeth into, including the Bella in the Wych Elm mystery.

Probably not much good for the project, but they might entertain him.

I can't see why! Obviously don't go into detail about the murders and who the victims were but it was a huge crime and it wasn't ever solved. That could be the vocal point more than the actual murders. I have the book on Jack the Ripper. (Haven't read it though) /: