to let DS do school project on Jack the Ripper?

[soupforbrains]

DS is 10. he is bright, loves reading and is a huge history buff.

Summer homework project is "Choose a famous Victorian to learn about and present what you learn in a creative way".

DS wants to do Jack the Ripper, DS is already aware of Jack the Ripper from the Horrible Histories books and some other kids books/shows which have discussed great unsolved mysteries.

I think this is a fun idea, and together we have discussed presenting the finding on a big board like and investigation/crime board. Obviously there will be some glossing over of the details and clearly we're not about to stick crime scene photos up. We've also discussed looking into the living conditions in the east end of london at the time to give more social history learning to it than just the crimes.

I'm not an idiot and I know that this idea is perhaps a bit risky but so long as we do it in an age appropriate and not over gory manner would IBU to let son do this. Additionally would any teachers out there consider it to be interesting and a bit different from the no doubt countless Isambard Kingdom Brunels which turn up, or a step too far?

I wondered if you might have seen the link already OP.

I do think some of the mysteries could be developed a bit more (for example instead of a crime board, a colour coded map of the routes taken by the disappearing ships to their last known location and intended destination, and the route the survives tried and failed to use to get to safety. Sir John Franklin as the focus, so perhaps even colour coded lines to other destinations he travelled before his last journey, and information on why this kind of expedition was important to the Victorians, that kind of thing.

I'm tempted to do my own project actually. I love a project.

Although the mystery that interested me was one that doesn't quite come under your Victorian requirements. It's from the 1940's but is still unsolved. It was the one about "Who put Loubella in the Wych-Elm?", when four schoolboys found a skull hidden in a tree and the police found a woman's skeleton hidden in the tree and her hand buried miles away. There's a whole theory about spies, and a local man who had visions of a woman looking at him from inside a tree before the body was found. I found the link while I was looking at the one I shared with you.

However, what your son does as a project is really up to you and him. If he does stick with JtR I think your idea of letting the teacher know and keeping a good eye on his research is a good one.

I'm a bit torn between the concerns that it's an odd interest for a child and thinking that this kind of interest is how we ended up with forensics and modern policing ideas in the first place. People who were interested in the "how do we stop this / catch them" aspect rather than the "JtR is my hero" kind of way.

"
If he was doing a project on nazi germany or Jews in Germany no one would bat an eyelid. Just for context"

I would at 10. Buttftzyyuioopp

Would he be interested in circus performers? There are loads of really interesting showmen around at this time or if he counts ( as he's French but I think lived in England for quite some time) Blondin the tightrope walker who famously walked over Niagara variously on stilts, pushing a wheelbarrow, carrying his manager on his back and stopping part way to cook and eat an omelette!

I agree that there are other instances of murder- such as the holocaust- that may not always get the context or appropriate discussion that they should in school history lessons or in self-study by school students- but that needs addressing in itself. It doesn't make a de-contextualised and sanitised primary school 'study' of the Jack the Ripper murders OK.

I completely agree that we are given a Disney version of JtR. I've seen organised groups in the East End heading off on nighttime Ripper Walks. Horrible.

Why shouldn't he? All those wittering on about prostitution and violence against women, are we supposed to pretend that it never happened?

One of the things about Jack the Ripper for instance is the fact that to this day no-one actually knows who he was, so it's not remotely comparable to e.g. Jimmy Saville or Peter Sutcliffe because those were known and in the case of Sutcliffe, served and are serving time for their crimes.

Whether people like it or not Jack the Ripper was a character of history not just because of what he did but because of how he evaded capture. In 200 years time I have very little doubt that many of the crimes and unsolved mysteries of today will be discussed as historical, including e.g. Disappearances which have never been solved but which are unable to be mentioned today but in 200 years time will be great discussion of speculation.

Elinor I agree about your school visits idea.

he was doing a project on nazi germany or Jews in Germany no one would bat an eyelid. Just for context

The Holocaust hasn't (yet) been turned in to a bit of fun and excitement like JTR has for whatever reason. You don't get boozy tours of concentration camps.

People are fascinated by crime. Even more so by unsolved mysteries. But you only have to look at the bbc of a weekday evening to see that murder is something which we all see as entertainment. Mid summer murders, murder on the orient express. How many writers have made their living by writing novels, plays, tv series, producing films, all of which talk about murder in graphic detail. Some of those are fictional of course, but once you become fascinated by the fictional it's not that big a leap to what happened in reality.

If only DS and the teacher will see it, and you think it's age appropriate for him and will be there whilst he manages the project, then I would let him do the project on the subject he wants to do it on.

It's pretty rotten to have to do homework in the holidays anyway (and I say this as a teacher) so if he does have homework to do at least let it be on something he's interested in and will enjoy!

It seems very odd to be presenting your DS with a list of other figures he's not particularly interested in and encouraging him to pick one when he's already got an idea which fits the brief (Victorian figure) that he actually wants to research.

Lots of history is gruesome. I would have expected that by Year 6 most children will have already learnt about Henry Eighth (had his wives beheaded), the Nazis (bombed Britain, exterminated 6 million jews), the Nativity story (Herod ordered every baby boy to be killed), the Titanic (hundreds of people drowned at sea) and many other horrible things.

As long as your DS isn't dressing up Jack The Ripper as a hero or focusing heavuly on the gruesome side of things then I think the project is fine and a relevant part of British and Victorian history and not inappropriate for a child in Year 6.

TheRealBiscuitAddict
All those wittering on about prostitution and violence against women, are we supposed to pretend that it never happened?

What a dismissive comment that shows you've completely missed the point.

The fact that this was violence against poor women who were prostitutes and is now seen as vaguely entertaining and bit of murder mystery almost erases the victims from the picture. The violent murder of women gets turned into an entertaining who dunnit. This is a complaint that women are still making about the media portrayal of violence against women by men where the focus is often entirely on how the male assailant was a good chap and liked golf and the female victim is an afterthought.

The violent murder of women gets turned into an entertaining who dunnit

Yes some people have done that. But that does not mean that everyone who has studied the murders approaches them in that spirit. No serious scholarship is interested vin 'uncovering' his identity or glamour using his crimes.

But by the same token it is possible to do good and interesting non prurient, non-mysogonistic study of the murders and use them and the plethora of sources as a prism into wider social and cultural concerns. Judith Walkowitz's ' City of Dreadful Delight' is an example of a feminist academic cultural history.

The thing is the cat is out of the bag, the genie is out of the bottle and the fox has been evicted from the dustbin (might have made that last one up). Ops Ds, like so many people in society, has become interested in JtR. It's a rather macabre interest to have and it might be preferable that he not show an interest til he was older, but he is where he is- that interest isn't going to go away.

Op now has 2 options:
a) she can agree to help him look into it, guiding him away from the worst aspects and being there to talk to him about all the issues that arise. He will come away with a better understanding of what happened and may decide for himself that this isn't 'fun' 'interesting' or 'entertaining'.
or
b) she can absolutely refuse to discuss it, adding the glamour of the forbidden to the already macabre and gruesome. If people were worried that his classmates would go on to secretly google JtR what do you think Op's son will do? He's already expressed an interest. But Op won't be able to check what he sees and he won't dare talk about anything that disturbs him because he shouldn't have been looking.

Which is the best way to deal with it?

Why can't she just discuss/investigate/explore JtR at home with him in an appropriate way that she's happy with and do a different Victorian for the project?

I also think Elinors school visits idea is a good one. Re. Josephine Butler ...........Catharine Arnold was just mentioning one of the theories that was bandied about at the time.

Of course these murders were misogynistic and happened because they met a violent psychopath.
CA was pointing out that the mental gymnastics of blaming others usually women instead of the male perpatrater happened back then.

And obvs still happens today.

If you take away prostitution and the murder and mutilation of women, what's left of interest in the Jack the Ripper case?

The impact on popular culture, the then-unprecedented media involvement, the drawing of attention to slum conditions and the impact on metropolitan policing and investigative techniques, just for starters.

BoysofMelody
I agree that serious academic study on this topic can be very well done and important.

However, a 10 year olds project that, by necessity, glosses over the prostitution, violence, poverty and misogyny of the time does move more into entertaining who dunnit. It feels like the women are being airbrushed out of the story (as happened then and I think happens with the reporting of some violence against women now).

All these "True Crime" armchair detective types justifying their prurient curiosity.

he was doing a project on nazi germany or Jews in Germany no one would bat an eyelid. Just for context

The Holocaust hasn't (yet) been turned in to a bit of fun and excitement like JTR has for whatever reason. You don't get boozy tours of concentration camps

Exactly. What a bizarre comparison.

The impact on popular culture, the then-unprecedented media involvement, the drawing of attention to slum conditions and the impact on metropolitan policing and investigative techniques, just for starters

If social reform was the issue then any of Dickens, Dr. Barnardo or Henry Mayhew are far better bets.

Why can't she just discuss/investigate/explore JtR at home with him in an appropriate way that she's happy with and do a different Victorian for the project?

Because its his summer holidays. its bad enough he's been giving this project to do in the first place (especially with the stipulation - be creative, no posters, no power points -I would be creatively telling them to F off). If the child must spend his holiday working - let him work on something he's actually interested in FFS.

Bertrand people are drawn to the gruesome and macabre, you can hate it, deplore it, judge it and everyone who does it, all you like, but it is what it is. If I were in armchair psychologist mode settles into armchair I would say it was a way for people to process and deal with the more horrendous aspects of humanity - look at it until isn't scary any more, look at it until it doesn't seem real anymore and then you can tell yourself comforting lies about how that could never happen to you.
Then of course some of them may well just be blood thirsty, the inheritors of the kind of people who got front row seats at executions and dipped their hankies in the blood of the executed.
Everyone's different.

But people here aren't 'justifying' they're interest - because they don't have to justify themselves, to you or anyone else. They just disagree with your point of view.

But I still think that if a child shows an interest in this stuff its far better to look at it with them and talk about it honestly and seriously than it is to refuse to talk about it and thus turn it into a fascinating, forbidden secret.

It's exactly the sort of thing my DS (nearly 10) would suggest. If he's yr 6, I don't see a massive problem.

"But I still think that if a child shows an interest in this stuff its far better to look at it with them and talk about it honestly and seriously than it is to refuse to talk about it and thus turn it into a fascinating, forbidden secret."
I agree. That does not mean that a sanitized version of the events is appropriate for a 10 year old's school project. And most of the interest people show in JR is not serious or academic or honest. It is London Dungeon type titillation and cheap thrills.

I read a few books on The Tower of London as an 8 year old, these were adult books and they graphically described torture and execution of prisoners and the crimes they were accused of. I knew that women were burned at the stake for adultery in times past at that age.. My Mother left us to our own devices and I spent a lot of time in the library taking adult books in to the children's section to read.

Problem is we don't really know your DS at all.It instilled in me a lifelong love of history.

I would say that a sanitised version of events means it cannot really be presented well as it cannot be researched properly. Plus I think that exposing other dc who are not supervised online is a very big issue and you could make yourself very unpopular with other parents.

I know my ds (9) is untypical of a mn child in that he is wonderfully average, but the kind of academic approach to a murderer people seem to be suggesting here, I feel would be way beyond him and his classmates.

It's interesting as an example of the way in which we minimise/collude in our own oppression that a sexually matured (active) female - along with quite a few others on the internet - is happy to encourage a male child whose ideas about sexuality are still developing to take an interest in a figure whose main 'achievement' is to succeed in killing a large number of disadvantaged and vulnerable women.

I would include 'crime scene photos' this was the first time murder victims were photographed, there are pictures of the face that are not as gory and the history of forensics and how little they had in Victorian times compared to now.