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Original poster

To be worried about the future of WOMEN'S athletics

337 replies

TeamCersei · 11/08/2017 22:30

Just that really.

I've been avidly following the athletics and have noticed that at least two countries where the competitors are, how can I say this tactfully,? Are of dubious gender. Hmm
and guess what. They win the races. Every time.

How can women compete against this?
How is it fair?

I'm prepared to get my arse handed on a plate but I don't care.
I think this needs to be discussed.
God only knows how it feels from a competitor's point of view.
No matter how hard you train, the best woman can't hope to win against'men'

OP posts:
sweetbitter · 12/08/2017 10:37

Again you are focussing on the intersex athlete and have a blind spot when it comes to fairness to the other competitors

I have no blind spot and no formed opinion, I am debating this with an open mind.

I can see the fairness issue, but the fact that various committees of experts seem to have been unable to process in adequately gives me pause for thought.

nolongersurprised · 12/08/2017 10:37

My 3 pre pubertal children will have low to undetectable testosterone. Their stress and growth hormones are normal and they are completely "physiologically healthy". Testosterone isn't a necessity

sweetbitter · 12/08/2017 10:37

*process in = prove it

Mulledwine1 · 12/08/2017 10:38

Not RTFT but agree with this:

You are totally spot on. It's completely unfair. However it seems to be one of those issues that womem are not allowed to debate without being called a bigot

Look at Lynsey Sharp as a hashtag on Twitter. The hate is amazing. Some of it comes from the cybernats, as she said she'd want to run for GB and not Scotland if it became independent, but a lot is because of the Caster Semenya thing. I believe Lynsey is very well informed, as she wrote a degree thesis on the subject and suspect all the haters are not.

PricklyBall · 12/08/2017 10:38

Much as it would be nice to keep the intersex and trans issues separate, they can't be kept separate on the present rules. The present rules are that chromosomes don't count, and testosterone levels don't count (so long as they're endogenous and not externally administered). Add into that mix self-identification as the only criterion for legal "womanhood" and then there are no grounds on which you could refuse to allow a transwoman with testosterone in the male range and fully functioning androgen receptors from competing.

BoneyBackJefferson · 12/08/2017 10:44

PricklyBall

the range of advantage is between 1.8 and 4.5 % in the 800 metres the High T time is 2.18 seconds (approx) faster.

It would be nice (and I know CAS does it as well) if we could stop comparing women's times to men's.

sweetbitter · 12/08/2017 10:44

Prickly - thanks for your post on the previous page, quite informative.

JacquesHammer · 12/08/2017 10:47

but I have yet to see concrete examples in athletics where a biological male is competing with the women because he self-identifies as female

Fallon Fox
Laurel Hubbard
Simona Castricum

More alarmingly, the first and last are playing in contact sports.

BoneyBackJefferson · 12/08/2017 10:47

nolongersurprised
But those people with intersex with higher functional testosterone are excluded already.

they haven't for the last two years, as CAS removed T testing as the research at the time was inconclusive.

and it is this (as far as I can tell) that will allow transgender athletes to run in women's races

VestalVirgin · 12/08/2017 10:48

I'm not sure what you mean by "the individuals in question are usually physiologically healthy so they cannot be completely insensitive to testosterone?"

Testosterone also has an influence on the mind. People can get depression from having low testosterone. As you probably know, women have testosterone, too.

Some testosterone receptors must be working in a person who is XY but outwardly appears as woman, because otherwise this person would be the same as an adult woman with no testosterone.

My 3 pre pubertal children...

Are pre-pubertal children. And I doubt your claim that they have undetectable testosterone levels. Low, sure. But hormones can have effects in very low doses.

Painfulpain · 12/08/2017 10:52

Intersex athletes such as Caster have undergone invasive and extensive 'testing' to have been declared as women; including vaginal examinations where clitoris measurements and pubic hair grading have taken place.

Trans athletes just undergo a blood test

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 12/08/2017 10:53

I think with intersex athletes eligibility has to be decided on a case by case basis - it is too complex for a blanket ruling.

MTT folk competing in women's events is a definite no though.

nolongersurprised · 12/08/2017 10:57

I've regularly seen children's blood test results where the testosterone levels are undetectable. Women do have have testosterone, but people with CAIS have high serum testosterone but are completely lack the receptors to make it "useful".

I'm not really sure what your meaning is - that because people with CAIS aren't uniformly depressed then they must have some functional testosterone? Because they really don't. That's kind of the whole physiological point of CAIS and that's why they're allowed to compete with women.

miked99 · 12/08/2017 10:58

Has this happened in athletics though?
Fallon Fox was a dude who went boxing against females

Fallon Fox was a MMA fighter and is a transexual who apart from gender reassignment surgery went through several years of hormone replacement therapy to meet the scientifically determined, required conditions of the sport to negate the male hormone related advantages in sports.

I personally don't think it's right that she was allowed to compete, but
a) It's not as simple as self-identifying as female
b) She lost to a (I don't know what the right term is) XX chromosome woman

Katnisnevergreen · 12/08/2017 10:59

I found this article which I thought was interesting reading, particularly in regard to anomalies and being 'too male' in terms of times.

mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/20/sports/caster-semenya-800-meters.html

Papafran · 12/08/2017 11:02

JacquesHammer, thanks, I was aware of the first two. Simona Castricum just seems to be playing for the uni sports team though rather than being a professional sports person. I think I was looking more for track/field athletes actually. I agree that Laurel Hubbard is grossly unfair and should not be allowed to compete as a woman. I also agree that Fallon Fox should not be allowed to fight biological females and I think she nearly killed someone in the past.

I am against biological males competing in women's sports. However, I do not class CS etc as biological males.

C0untDucku1a · 12/08/2017 11:18

.

Original poster
TeamCersei · 12/08/2017 11:28

It's not just testosterone. Men have greater muscle mass, better cardiovascular capability, bigger bones, stronger ligaments and greater capacity for endurance.

That's why men compete separately from women.

Semanya and Wambui are just the tip of the iceberg. The Olympic ruling on trans athletes means that women's athletics is dead in the water.

Trouble is, I doubt it will ever get sorted. As soon as people say anything, theyget accused of hating the athlete or an even lower kick below the belt being racist^

OP posts:
JacquesHammer · 12/08/2017 11:32

Simona Castricum just seems to be playing for the uni sports team though rather than being a professional sports person

I'm not sure that matters? I play amateur rugby. I want to keep on playing amateur rugby. Playing against men isn't something I am interested in.

For me womens' sport shouldn't be eroded from grassroots level upwards.

BoneyBackJefferson · 12/08/2017 11:36

Just going to put this forward.

Yearwood is a young American, there education system has a scholarship system. Would it be fair that if Yearwood got an athletics sports scholarship?

The knock on effect of the current system is that a young woman will lose out to a transwoman.

Original poster
TeamCersei · 12/08/2017 11:40

The issue boils down to whether having male characteristics due to intersex condition amounts to an unfair advantage over other women. I personally have no hesitation in believing that it does. Rio 2016 proved it.

OP posts:
wrenika · 12/08/2017 11:45

Once again, MN users know more than the experts. Talk about armchair politics!

As far as Caster Semenya goes, in 2015 it was ruled that there is a lack of evidence to show that increased testosterone levels increase female athletic performance. The IAAF had two years to prove that it does (which was then extended by 2 months). So July 2015 to September 2017...if there is any evidence, we'll be hearing it soon...watch this space.
She was put through gender testing, then cleared to continue in female sports. The results were never made public. It's her business.

wrenika · 12/08/2017 11:48

Also, trans individuals undergoing hormone treatment...are we not considering the implications that has on their body! It's not like they keep everything about their prior gender. A MTF is not going to have the strength she had as a man. She still has a bigger frame though, of course, but the effects of HRT must have some impact.

BoneyBackJefferson · 12/08/2017 11:54

wrenika
Once again, MN users know more than the experts. Talk about armchair politics!

what I have posted is from the "experts". One of the problems is wading through the bias and the 'ego' of "experts" wanting to protect their status.

Personally I feel that it says much that one of the "experts" for a T cap is a scientist as well as a transgender athlete (that is the order she puts them in). (but that is just my view)