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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it's cheeky to apply for an Irish passport because of brexit?

817 replies

MyheartbelongstoG · 11/08/2017 16:10

Just that really.

OP posts:
MimpiDreams · 07/06/2018 15:21

It's an outline in principal of the withdrawal agreement as agreed last December (as it says it on your link) which Theresa May has subsequently reneged on. There is no agreement in place. Dear God, how many times do you need to be told.

A4710Rider · 07/06/2018 15:21

Mimpi & Tokyo

This is the agreement that was rejected.

ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/transition.pdf

I don't see any mention of section 28 posted previously. If I'm looking at the wrong document then let me know.

LoveInTokyo · 07/06/2018 15:23

Let's conveniently forget that we're offering everyone here now "settled status" which is more than the EU is offering.

No it isn’t.

The EU wants people currently exercising their existing treaty rights to have those treaty rights preserved indefinitely.

Theresa May’s paltry offer falls a long way short of that. It’s not about having the right to live in the other country. It’s about having the unrestricted right to live, work, move around, come and go as you please, have the same access to pensions, education, healthcare and other benefits and the right to be joined by family members. The rights don’t expire if you leave the country for more than a certain period of time, and they can be enforced by the CJEU if they are infringed. That’s not what Theresa May is offering.

Imagine you are Polish in the UK with a British spouse. Your British spouse has caring responsibilities for their elderly parents and your half British children who were born in the UK are in school and doing well. They can speak Polish but they can’t write it very well. Moving to Poland is not really an option for your family. You are an only child and your elderly parents in Poland can no longer cope on their own. Under current EU rules they can come here to live near you. Under the solution the EU has proposed you could bring them to the UK to live with you using your treaty rights which are fully preserved after Brexit. Under Theresa May’s proposed solution you probably can’t.

Another scenario. You are British and you live in the UK with your French spouse. When you reach 65, you decide to retire to France on a pension of £17,000. When you are 75 you decide you want to live in the UK after all. Under current EU rules you can move back, no problem. Under the EU’s proposed plan your French spouse can exercise their preserved treaty rights to move back. Under Theresa May’s proposed solution your French spouse has lost their right to live in the UK and your pension (which hasn’t increased in line with RPI as it would have done under EU rules) doesn’t give you enough income to sponsor your spouse for a visa.

MimpiDreams · 07/06/2018 15:24

No, that's the transition agreement.

A4710Rider · 07/06/2018 15:24

What I think is happening is that you can't bring yourselves to accept that the UK is being fair and square and it's the EU putting Barniers in the way of everything.

Excuse the pun.

mnawesome · 07/06/2018 15:25

nothing has been agreed till everything has been agreed, eh?

That web-page is not necessarily what is going to happen. And given that the UK government can't even commit to agreements that they signed in December, it would be foolish of anyone to take their word about anything.

An Irish passport will give you the right to work anywhere in Europe, to vote in EU elections, pay EU fees for universities rather than inflated overseas fees and apply for EU schemes (e.g. academic research funds). It's worth a lot more than a speedypass through the airport.

A4710Rider · 07/06/2018 15:28

Another scenario. You are British and you live in the UK with your French spouse. When you reach 65, you decide to retire to France on a pension of £17,000. When you are 75 you decide you want to live in the UK after all. Under current EU rules you can move back, no problem. Under the EU’s proposed plan your French spouse can exercise their preserved treaty rights to move back. Under Theresa May’s proposed solution your French spouse has lost their right to live in the UK and your pension (which hasn’t increased in line with RPI as it would have done under EU rules) doesn’t give you enough income to sponsor your spouse for a visa

Right, now I've read that..let's call off Brexit, have another rererendum!!!

For fucks sake.

LoveInTokyo · 07/06/2018 15:29

Right, now I've read that..let's call off Brexit, have another rererendum!!!

Or just call it off. Since things that have the potential to fuck up people’s lives so badly and are far too complex for the average voter to understand should never have been put to a referendum in the first place. It was grossly negligent.

A4710Rider · 07/06/2018 15:31

An Irish passport will give you the right to work anywhere in Europe, to vote in EU elections, pay EU fees for universities rather than inflated overseas fees and apply for EU schemes (e.g. academic research funds)

You're aware that after Brexit, a British person will still be able to work within the EU, right?

Have people actually forgotten what it was like before the EU, before the Schengen, etc, etc? Pretty sure I worked in France, pretty sure I went to mainland Europe 4 or 5 times a year...

A4710Rider · 07/06/2018 15:40

Since things that have the potential to fuck up people’s lives so badly

Millions of people have already had their lives fucked up because of the EU

I, for one, don't want to be part of Superstate, I don't want to be a part of something where their main spokesman says things like "there can be democracy against the European treaties."

The EU may have crushed Greek democracy, I'll be dammed if they do it to us.

LoveInTokyo · 07/06/2018 15:42

The EU has not fucked up your life, you whingeing little snowflake. Messing with people’s incomes and careers and separating families does though. Removing important rights people have been relying on for years does.

A4710Rider · 07/06/2018 15:45

The EU has not fucked up your life

Yeah, I never actually said it did. Try reading what I write rather than what you think I've wrote.

It's already fucked millions over though...and the Euro will help Italy over and into the abyss sooner rather than later. Unfortunately.

mnawesome · 07/06/2018 15:47

Yes, but they'll most probably need a work permit. And given the choice of employing a EU citizen with no paperwork or a Brit that needs a special dispensation and possibly extra visas, they'll go for the EU citizen.

The British will become like the Americans or the Australians. Yes, of course it will be possible for those with good qualifications and experience to work abroad but it will be a hell of a lot more hassle and you can be kicked out of the country whenever they want.

LoveInTokyo · 07/06/2018 15:50

If the euro is such a blight on people’s lives, why is the only country leaving the EU a country that never joined the euro in the first place?

I did read your post. You were wibbling on about democracy.

Whilst we’re on the subject of “democracy”, you may like living in a country where the electoral system is rigged so that either the Tories or Labour must win, where the views of anyone who is not Tory or Labour will never be represented in government, where the party whip system means that MPs answer to their leader and not to their constituents, where we have an unelected upper chamber (albeit one trying its best to provide some much needed checks and balances at the moment) and an unelected head of state. I don’t. And I don’t particularly appreciate the fact that people like you took away my right to vote in the only elections where my vote has ever made any difference, i.e. the European Parliament elections which are run on a proportional representation system.

A4710Rider · 07/06/2018 15:57

If the euro is such a blight on people’s lives, why is the only country leaving the EU a country that never joined the euro in the first place

Because it was sensible and knew that it had to have it's economy in it's own hands. Italy can do the square root of fuck all to improve their situation because their hands are tied to the Europe. Hundreds of Thousands of people are suffering.

11% unemployment. 4th Largest economy in Europe. government Debt of 133% to GDP.

Whilst we’re on the subject of “democracy”, you may like living in a country where the electoral system is rigged so that either the Tories or Labour must win, where the views of anyone who is not Tory or Labour will never be represented in government

Did you miss the Liberals being involved in Government for 4 years, how did you manage that?

And I don’t particularly appreciate the fact that people like you took away my right to vote in the only elections where my vote has ever made any difference, i.e. the European Parliament elections which are run on a proportional representation system

Is this why you're turning your back on democracy and embracing the EU? Your butthurt because Labour and the Tories always win?

A4710Rider · 07/06/2018 16:00

One thing I find interesting about Remainers is when we talk about the EU countries and their finances.

For some reason they become a bit deaf, become a bit blind. "All I care about is how fucking great the EU is and how shit we are" is the impression I get. Well let me tell you this, Southern Europe is on it's knees financially and has been and is being swamped with Africa migrants.

What are the EU doing about it?

Fuck all.

Do I want to be a part of that club?

No

DN4GeekinDerby · 07/06/2018 16:03

A4710Rider Thanks for posting that government link. I found it interesting. From what I can see, it looks like the UK government is attempting to create a transition that will transfer residents from EU countries onto a similar path that fits into the one non-EU migrants currently use. This seems to be in contrast to what is on the EU table for EU citizens to maintain a different status.

Most I know voted remain (I don't have the vote here) but I guess for many of those who voted Leave, that would probably be a desired goal? I mean, if you want to leave the EU, you probably want immigrants from the EU to be the same as non-EU ones and for British people to be treated as non-EU immigrants when going elsewhere?

A4710Rider · 07/06/2018 16:03

Spain Unemployment - 17%

Italy - 11%

Portugal - 8% (well done Portugal)

France - 10%

Greece - 20%

Yeah, the Euro and the EU are great, aren't they? No body is being fucked over by them at all, are they?

LoveInTokyo · 07/06/2018 16:18

Because it was sensible and knew that it had to have it's economy in it's own hands.

Nobody who has the faintest grasp of economics thinks Brexit is in the UK’s best interests. Literally all the analysis now is focused on what kind of Brexit is going to be the least damaging. There will be no Brexit boom. Sorry to disappoint you.

Also, in case it’s escaped your notice, the EU is full of countries with widely differing economies. Now there may well be an argument that countries as economically different as, say the Netherlands and Greece should not be sharing a currency. But since they do, and they are both in the EU, and yet their economic setup is so different, it’s obvious that a country’s economic circumstances are determined by a much wider range of factors than whether they are in the EU/the euro or not.

You also keep using the example of Italy - a country you clearly don’t know much about - to justify Brexit, when (and this may come as a shock to you) Italy and the UK are not the same country.

Did you miss the Liberals being involved in Government for 4 years, how did you manage that?

Bit hard for me to miss since I worked for the government at the time.

The Lib Dems did a good job holding the Tories back from some of their more dangerous policies. Unfortunately they were inexperienced in government - due to the above mentioned system which ensured they never got a look in before - and underrepresented considering the number of votes they actually got. (There were around five times as many Lib Dem voters per Lib Dem MP as there were Tory voters per Tory MP.) This meant that the Tories ran rings around them, particularly in relation to tuition fees. They were sadly punished at the ballot box for going into coalition with the Tories because the electorate does not understand how coalitions actually work (again, due to the above mentioned rigged and unrepresentative system).

Is this why you're turning your back on democracy and embracing the EU? Your butthurt because Labour and the Tories always win?

This makes no sense.

Yes, I am unhappy with a so-called “democratic system” in which my fairly mainstream views are entirely unrepresented. I would like more democracy, not less. I find the EU more democratic than the UK. And the UK is getting less democratic by the day.

Evidence:

  • After a referendum in which the vote was almost evenly split between leave and remain (and some of the people most affected by the decision were not allowed to vote at all) the government seems to be pursuing the hardest, most extreme version of Brexit possible.
  • Theresa May tried to trigger Article 50 without the consent of parliament and when our legal system did its job and told her she had to go through the correct constitutional channels, the pro Brexit press branded our most senior judges “enemies of the people” and the government stood by and let it happen.
  • Theresa May called a general election because she said she needed a stronger mandate for the Brexit strategy she wanted to pursue. She lost her majority and is now behaving as though she thinks she won a thumping one.
  • Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP and essentially all other small parties can be ignored, except the DUP, who most people probably hadn’t heard of his time last year, and who have the power to collapse the government if they don’t approve of what Theresa May is doing.
  • The majority of Labour MPs and Labour voters are pro remain, but Jeremy Corbyn is a Brexiter who keeps whipping his MPs to vote with the government so there is no effective opposition.
  • Legislative amendments proposed by the House of Lords are being essentially ignored.
  • There is a growing body of evidence showing that the referendum was subject to interference by foreign governments with the aid of companies like Cambridge Analytica, and that the leave campaign breached all kinds of electoral rules. But no consequences. Not even a word on this from the government.

Would you like me to continue, or will that suffice?

A4710Rider · 07/06/2018 16:25

Nobody who has the faintest grasp of economics thinks Brexit is in the UK’s best interests. Literally all the analysis now is focused on what kind of Brexit is going to be the least damaging. There will be no Brexit boom. Sorry to disappoint you

Why are you referring to Brexit when I was referring as to why the UK kept the Euro, are you not reading what I write again?

The majority of Labour MPs and Labour voters are pro remain

That's a lie. it was the working classes who voted for Brexit as they are the ones most affected by the EU and it's policies/pissed off.

There is a growing body of evidence showing that the referendum was subject to interference by foreign governments with the aid of companies

No there isn't. It's just more fake news and progaganda by you lot

LoveInTokyo · 07/06/2018 16:29

That's a lie.

Dude, if 52% is a good enough majority for you then 65% damn well ought to be.

To think it's cheeky to apply for an Irish passport because of brexit?
A4710Rider · 07/06/2018 16:29

academic.oup.com/economicpolicy/article/32/92/601/4459491

Look at figure 1, tell me that a lot of them aren't traditionally Labour strongholds?

A4710Rider · 07/06/2018 16:35

Dudess,

Hang on a minute. That a pile of bollocks.

Surely the only way they can know those figures is to poll actual signed up members of the political parties. It's not a true reflection in any way shape or form.

LoveInTokyo · 07/06/2018 16:35

Your link shows nothing except that a lot of people who live in poor areas, when faced with a binary choice between “same shit” and “different shit” somewhat unsurprisingly voted for “different shit”.

It does not show that a majority of Labour voters voted leave, or that people in deprived areas who voted leave will experience any improvement in their personal circumstances post Brexit.

Your link tells us more about human psychology than it does about economics or politics.

joangray38 · 07/06/2018 16:36

I know several individuals who voted leave and then had the cheek to apply for second passports as they didn't want to lose their EU rights.

I already know that several graduate schemes which involve travelling abroad are suggesting applicants apply for second passports (and I guess giving them preference). A two tier citizenship will develop those like me who have no access to an Irish etc passport and have no rights - the cons will use this as an opportunity to remove as many rights as they can and those who have access to EU rights.