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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if Nazi Germany felt like the UK does now, when they were creeping into power?

475 replies

oneggshellsforever · 11/08/2017 13:47

Transformations in the justice system are happening, stacking the odds against disabled people having a fair hearing when they appeal sanctions or having disability benefits turned down.

They're getting rid of in person tribunals, and getting rid of expert panel members.

Disabled people are often successful when it goes to appeal, so the government seem to be systematically stripping the legal system of a fair trial?

Will start happening in October. What the government is doing to disabled people, and people with very little money in general, is chilling me to the bone. I honestly wonder if the feeling in the atmosphere was like this in 1930's Germany.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/12/online-benefits-appeals-tribunals-disabled

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 11/08/2017 22:26

Last point before I go and eat chips - wherever you are on the political spectrum it's a good thing to use critical thinking and reputable sources, and question them, even if you thoroughly agree with the conclusions and think it's the perfect link to back up your argument.

We are being bombarded with information at an ever increasing rate and 90% of it is BS (trufact Wink). It's becoming increasingly important to have the skills to assess the credibility of the info we are receiving, whether that's from Channel 5, the govt., bloke down the road, our favourite charity, common sense, the BBC, the daily mail ...

There are a few good MOOCs on this if you google.

underneaththeash · 11/08/2017 22:29

REALLY? OP your suggestion is really quite offensive. The nazi actively sought out sections of society and incarcerated and then murdered them. To suggest that the current government policing of asking people to prove that they are entitled to certain benefits is not in any way discriminatory.

There is a finite pot of money even if you include all the "bankers" etc money...why on earth should the people who are entitled to claim for the money not prove they are entitled?

Supporting people who are severely mentally/physically ill and are unable to work is a basic facet of a civilised society, but we also have the duty to protect the public purse from people who take the piss - and the problem is that people do take the mickey. That's why Greece and Italy are such a bad state.

People who work and are on a moderate income should not have to subsidise people who choose not to.

zzzzz · 11/08/2017 22:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JumpingJellybeanz · 11/08/2017 22:45

There is a description of it in Neurotribes, S.Silberman, and a good theory about the origin of the whole "little professor" stereotype of Aspergers Syndrome.

Can you tell us a bit about this theory? I'm genuinely interested as I have a 'little professor'.

zzzzz · 11/08/2017 23:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JumpingJellybeanz · 11/08/2017 23:28

Ah yes, now you explain it, it rings a bell. I've come across that before somewhere. Thanks. I've added the book to my amazon list.

malificent7 · 11/08/2017 23:30

So what about the people who have lost jobs such as the 20, 000 police officers? How are they being provided for? Or those on zero hour contracts or low incomes? Should they not get any help?

Oh i forgot.... there is no magic money tree and those who need help are lazy. We should all work as hard as possible in shite paying jobs in shite contracts.

I get u op.

Viva la Revolution i say!

Kursk · 11/08/2017 23:36

The government has other sources of income, a population reliant on the government isn't going to bite the hand that feeds

HelenaDove · 11/08/2017 23:36

The attitudes towards social housing tenants have worsened since 2010. Another group that have been "othered" The abuse towards the Grenfell residents has been astounding as well as disgusting.

bluegreenyellow · 11/08/2017 23:40

yabu the socialist party is not in power!

Peregrina · 12/08/2017 00:03

I had always wondered how a cultured, educated society could end up with Nazism. Now I begin to know. No, we are a long way from being there yet, but it could happen. Perhaps one thing which will save us is we know where it might lead, whereas the Germans probably didn't.

sashh · 12/08/2017 06:27

Is there evidence that people are materially poorer now than at previous points in British history?

The gap between rich and poor has never been greater. People use food banks now rather than soup kitchens.

How many families do you know that can survive on a single income?

Many of the policies are designed to stigmatise people. Eg 'bedroom tax' one bedroomed flats are now being rented out for more money that 2 bedroomed, the policy has not saved a penny, it has caused a lot of distress and hardship.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 12/08/2017 07:11

But again, if the evidence for the proposition that we are drifting toward Nazism is that some public rhetoric differentiates between deserving and undeserving poor and stigmatises the latter, we were drifting toward nazism in the nineteenth century.
I'm afraid this thread is illustrative of a strain of moral illiteracy, historical ignorance and downright silliness on the left which mirrors precisely the same characteristics in the dafter populist elements on the right. It is the functional equivalent of the DM comment page. It is not a serious discussion.

Natsku · 12/08/2017 08:18

We had a pretty terrible society in the 19th century in terms of how we treated the poor and the disabled but gradually improved. This time though, we are regressing from a more enlightened society back to a terrible one thanks to propaganda, cruel policies, and nationalism. That is quite different from the 19th century where things were, slowly, improving.

woman12345 · 12/08/2017 08:28

A couple of similarities between Britain now and recent totalitarian states in Europe, including Nazi Germany, but there are so many to choose from in the long history of totalitarian state:
Demonisation of left;
vilification of trade unionists;
threats to judiciary;
attacks on freedom of speech and privacy;
open and state controlled prejudice against ethnic group;
removal of access to higher education of particular ethnic group/nationalities;
anti feminist legislation and policies;
rabid nationalist press;
weaponising of the poor against the poor
vilification of the sick
hysterical nationalism at sporting events;
etc

medium.com/@Amy_Siskind

Amy Siskind has documented the changes in US, Perhaps we should document them here, systematically, they have been creeping up on us in plain sight.

"There is no more symbolic an image of 2016 than the picture of Donald Trump and a gloating Farage standing in front of Trump’s gold-plated doors, like a grotesque modern-day version of Churchill, Truman and Stalin at Potsdam.

Theirs is the face of the new “special relationship”.

Two people with no programme or policies worthy of the name, united by the size of their egos and the depth of their bigotry. Both describe themselves as “anti-establishment”. Both have campaigned, and won, on a platform of open xenophobia - stoking, then harnessing, anger and prejudice. Both have also lied and lied again.

There are, of course, many and complex factors behind the rise of both. But to explain it as a revolt of the “have-nots” against globalisation, or the failure of “liberalism”, is wrong, and simply plays into Trump and Farage’s hands. Most low-income voters in the USA actually voted for Hillary, and Trump got plenty of votes from the well-off: a pattern which is not dissimilar to that of the EU referendum.

At heart, this is about who we are, and what we stand for, as a society.

Reflection and critical thinking are perhaps not very fashionable in a fast-paced world where false news on social media shapes our view of the world much more than real news .

But our society is built on values, even if we take them for granted. These values, which include equality, fairness, justice and inclusivity, have made British society what it is today. They are not, however, exclusive to Britain, but shared across Europe.

The European Charter of Fundamental Rights states that the EU is
founded on the indivisible, universal values of human dignity, freedom, equality and solidarity; it is based on the principles of democracy and the rule of law
. It places the individual at the heart of its activities, by establishing the citizenship of the Union and by creating an area of freedom, security and justice.

Is there anything in there that is “un-British”? Is there anything that is offensive, or objectionable? Are these not the very same values that underpin the foundations of British society?

Ironically, the UK is in fact the only EU Member State, aside from Poland, to have opted out of the Charter - and that was well before the EU referendum. All EU Member States are nonetheless required to be signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights, which is but a European version of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights".

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/federico-moscogiuri/donald-trump-brexit_b_13136440.html

Nothing new in this article ^, but Hannah Arendt's free downloadable book on Totalitarianism documents the steady step by step journey from free, accountable state held to account by Separation of Powers to the internalised state controlled cruelty we see here in Britain now.

Interestingly there seems to be a roughly 30 year cycle between democracy and totalitarianism in northern Europe, over the last few hundred years. I wonder if we've been lulled by a particularly long period of peace, democracy and stability into forgetting to be watchful.

The slogan at Yad Vashem is 'Never Again'.

Many stand to make a fortune out of turning Britain into a totalitarian state, likewise in the state to which we aspire to have vassal status.

HurryUpAndWait · 12/08/2017 08:28

I think you're a genuine idiot @oneggshellsforever - Not even a troll. I think you believe this and that's what makes it more worrying.

woman12345 · 12/08/2017 08:31

Shift's started.

orlantina · 12/08/2017 08:31

I wonder if we've been lulled by a particularly long period of peace, democracy and stability into forgetting to be watchful

This. And it's easy to get complacent.

And I agree with women12345 post. Amy Siskind has documented the changes that have happened since Trump came in.

ElinorRigby · 12/08/2017 08:32

I think there are undemocratic elements in the way the Government has sought to gain/hold onto power.

There have been breaches of Electoral Commission rules, boundary changes and the use of statutory instruments as a way of avoiding parliamentary debate and consent. When the Opposition seeks to do its proper job, there's a tendency to caricature and distort its positions, as well as to indulge in personal abuse and demonise those who are campaigning for social democracy as crazed terrorists who threaten national stability.

I don't think many/any of us are saying that what is happening in the disUnited Kingdom is precisely what happened in 1930s Germany. But that the more authoritarian style of Government which seeks to marginalise dissent and whip up popular anger against those who have legitimate concerns, is causing real concern among people who are trying to place Theresa May's leadership style in a wider context.

ssd · 12/08/2017 08:36

bloody excellent post woman12345

orlantina · 12/08/2017 08:37

But that the more authoritarian style of Government which seeks to marginalise dissent and whip up popular anger against those who have legitimate concerns, is causing real concern among people who are trying to place Theresa May's leadership style in a wider context

What did the Daily Mail say? Crush the saboteurs?

To wonder if Nazi Germany felt like the UK does now, when they were creeping into power?
woman12345 · 12/08/2017 08:37

Tsarist Russia, Stalin's rule, Napoleon's France all had many similarities to techniques used in Germany. Turkey was a beacon of democracy in the 1920s and now look at Erdogan's state.

Education and documenting changes would do no harm to the resistance.

Totalitarianism is remarkably un imaginative, but pretty effective.

orlantina · 12/08/2017 08:42

Turkey was a beacon of democracy in the 1920s and now look at Erdogan's state

Agree.

Education and documenting changes would do no harm to the resistance

Agree

It is worrying to be gaslighted by politicians and the media. Being told things repeatedly that politicians claim to be true but blatantly aren't. Misleading stats and plain lies. And it's rare to hear effective opposition voices in prominent media outlets. People get complacent. Except when it affects them.

Social media is great but it does keep people in their bubbles and echoes their own views. Critical thinking is so important but many people just don't want to 'think' and are happy just getting on in their own bubble.

twelly · 12/08/2017 08:43

I would argue that rather than the demonisation of the left and ethnic groups what has happened is that people who are right of centre feel unable to express their views for fear of racist and nazi type labels. As a result many felt powerless, when they tried to express their opinion they were immediately vilified, hence the surge in ukip votes a few years ago and the brexit vote. Had their been more of a reasoned debate and an acknowledgment that these views did not make them extreme there may well have been a different outcome. With regard to some of the government policies regarding benefits the exact details are not always clear to all, and both sides are entitled to their views, again the right of centre view that benefits claims should be reduced does not make them nazis or uncompassionate. With regard to inequality figures in terms of household put the UK on a par with New Zealand which does not suggest we are vastly different from other developed nations.

Natsku · 12/08/2017 08:45

Excellent post woman12345 the UK needs its own Amy Siskind collating all the subtle and not-so-subtle changes that are happening so that we don't miss them.