AIBU in being angry with her too (DV related)

[lalalalyra]

I've been thinking quite a lot about my childhood recently. I tried to have some counselling sessions recently to deal with an issue with my brother, but I hated the counsellor and a comment made has actually left me annoyed.

I'm the youngest of 4. I'm younger by a way as my mother had 2 or 3 miscarriages between my sister and myself. My siblings are roughly 9, 8 and 6.5 years older than me.

When I was 7 my father burned one of my brothers with the iron and that was the snapping point for my paternal grandparents who removed us into their care. They were aware that my parents were neglectful and that there was violence between my parents (toward each other) and they bit their tongue over a lot to stay close as it was clear the situation was worsening as the drug problem became worse.

Anyway, my counsellor openly expressed surprise that I was angry with my mother. He tried to hide it, but the first time I mentioned it he reacted quite strongly.

Now my father was undoubtedly the worst of the two. He was cruel as well as violent. One of my earliest memories is being sat at the table hungry and watching him eat all 6 plates of dinner because we'd done something that meant we didn't deserve it. By the time I was 5 or 6 I knew to lie if he asked what my favourite birthday or Christmas present was (and I knew how to hide excitement when I opened something) because I knew he'd target my favourite thing, we all did.

However, my mother didn't just do nothing. I could understand a woman not knowing how to get out of a situation, but she diverted him to us sometimes. If he was raging mad when he came home then she'd start something. Accuse one of us of breaking something or doing something and that meant one of us, usually one of the boys, would get a hiding instead of her. Or she would give us a hiding herself, egged on by him, as that diverted his mind from her.

That I can't forgive. I actually think worse of her than him. He was evil. She wasn't. She didn't save us when social workers came calling or when she had the chance to leave because she knew that she wouldn't ever leave him and we were a buffer. I know this because she admitted it when she was dying.

She was a victim in many ways, but that didn't, imo, give her the right to do what she did to us. Yet this is the second time a counsellor has been surprised that I haven't, and won't, forgive her.

And it's annoying because I'm actually ok about them now. I've made my peace with it. It's the situation with my bloody siblings that I have an issue with and want to try and sort in my mind. It is related, the issues are partly because we have very different views (there is competative 'who suffered the most' between them), but I can't get by this because every counsellor insists on a background and then seems to think not forgiving her is the root. When it's not.

Wow. OP. You sound amazing

Incredibly strong. Just amazing.

Nothing wrong with hate. As long as it doesn't eat you up. I totally get that. It's ok to hate.

For years I blamed my father, when my mother was equally to blame.

I am totally at peace. But. If I were to talk about them, and what they did, anger will come out. Yet it has been dealt with.

You do not need to forgive. A new counsellor might be good though.

Sorry about your siblings. I don't see mine anymore. Neither does DH (same abusive stories). We all dealt with things differently. Don't need no more shit.

Totally agree with above poster, it's about finding peace for yourself. Sometimes the only way to do that is to accept you need to be happy and accept some people are incapable of considering your happiness, breaking ties and refusing to let them control your happiness

Another one here that finds the counselors insisting on forgiveness terribly misguided.

I also wonder if people associate different meanings to the word 'hate'. I'm similar to you OP, I acknowledge I hate my father, but don't believe it impacts my day to day life.

I believe it similar to when you have to put up with an unpleasant smell- unbearable if you're close, but not nearly as important if you're not.

Hope that makes some sense.

OP do you know why your brother was so unhappy about you not joining in the funeral. I have a theory but don't want to suggest it if you know the reason.

@italiangreyhound. I don't know 100% why. I think it was simply because he thought I should.

We were told our father was in s hospice and wanted to see us. We all said no. Then my sister decided she'd like to see him once, which was entirely her choice. Brother tried to talk her out of it, but in the end said she shouldn't go alone so he took her.

She then decided she wanted to visit regularly and it was decided (by eldest brother) that we all should. I said I wasn't and it was sort-of accepted (although I think I'd have been put under pressure had he survived longer). When I was told the funeral plans, and cost, is when it kicked off properly.

It ended very badly. As in my brother was at my door shouting and screaming at one point.

He even distorted the truth about a decision they and my grandparents made about my grandparents will. I inherited the family flat. I was called selfish and spoiled because I got "everything". Which completely and utterly ignores the fact that it was done because my grandad had a health scare. I was still at school, they were all married/uni/elsewhere. So, as one of them was about to buy a house my grandparents gave them their share in cash then.

He got it into his head that I'd benefitted vastly more because the flat is worth more now. Totally ignoring the fact the house he bought is also worth way more.

the discrepancy in value they had in cash and what the house was valued at when my nana died was less than £1500 each. I ended up writing cheques for that amount just to try and keep the peace (I played no part in the will discussions at the time and it's over 10 years since my Nana's death and nothing was mentioned until it was thrown in my face), but he still won't be civil.

He probably thinks he should have got the family home as well as well as his share in cash as he is the eldest.

My brother is like this, he has inherited the family home.

I am also the youngest one and the one picks on as I won't toe the line. I wonder what it is about the youngest child.

Do you think your oldest brother needs to feel like he was a superhero because at some level he feels he should/could have done more to protect you all the time? I'm not saying he should or could have protected you, but perhaps he feels guilty as the oldest sibling that he didn't do more, and to absolve himself projects the superhero role on himself. He needs all of you to accept him in this role to assuage his own guilt, so resents you for not doing so? I'm not saying you should accept this, but it may explain his behaviour towards you.

I don't think it's that Zahra I genuinely think that was just something to throw when he needed something.

I think he feels guilty that the first time our other brother spoke to our grandparents honestly we were removed. He was 16 when we moved, and I honestly believe he needs counselling to help him realise that the fact he said nothing, and more the fact he encouraged the rest of us to stay quiet (as we were warned by out parents) isn't his fault. He was just a kid. We all said nothing.

I think perhaps he carries a feeling he should have stopped it sooner. Which is incredibly sad. But his refusal to get help for it isn't my fault.

I think perhaps he carries a feeling he should have stopped it sooner. Which is incredibly sad. But his refusal to get help for it isn't my fault.

Yes, very sad, but this is probably true.

In my own situation, I am the youngest, and the two eldest have cut contact as I won't forgive my parents.

In DH's situation, he protected his little brother, but his older sister didn't protect him. She buggered off as soon as she could. Then had the audacity to ask for his help when confronting their mother as adults (as the counsellor had told her to do this - to move on - to forgive - they must meet and talk to her).

DH said no fucking way. He's at peace, didn't want to drag it up again.

In another situation, I dated a guy for a while as a teenager - his mother was an alcoholic and really abusive. His sister stayed with him and protected him as much as possible, till they could move together. They are still very close today.

Another one, my friend from years ago, 7 siblings all together - rape/abuse went on. There are still constant problems of guilt, anger, directed at siblings when it should only be at the parents.

It's very very hard. You have to go into self preservation. Which it sounds like you have achieved.

I hope your brother can get himself help (it seems harder for men to get counselling I think) - but above all, keep yourself away from toxic xx

Even when we moved into my grandparents he'd turn up drunk/out of it and thump on the door

It ended very badly. As in my brother was at my door shouting and screaming at one point

Your brother seems to be morphing into your father. Learned behaviour, or inherited?
It sounds like he makes the decisions and expects to be heard & obeyed. When it doesn't go how he wants, he reacts with fury & frustration. Does he mimic your father in any other ways?

As it is, this is not a relationship that you should pursue with any great hope. It is possible that because you have all experienced different levels & types of abuse, the damage is too immense to repair. It is also possible that he is putting himself in the position of abuser almost as a default setting - as if that is what he knows best.

As a child, you were unable to protect yourself.
As an adult - you can and must.

@hatsoncats He's very like our father in several ways. I realised with this whole saga that he always has been a bit, but I'd never really noticed as it was subtle, and also because he wasn't like it when my husband is around.

When this all kicked off my husband was working away and I do think that's relevant. I didn't notice it before, but when I look back I can see times where he was more involved in my life in a bossy-ish way and it was always when I was single or my DH was away.

I just wanted to speak to a counsellor to order my head a bit about losing all 3 of my siblings when I've done nothing wrong. I genuinely am ok about my parents. I've dealt with that. Loosing my siblings was very hard as they were my only biological relatives other than my children (although I am now in contact with my mother's father and brother - something my brother will never forgive me for as he forbade it, but it's my choice). I expected my parents to be part of the conversation, but I didn't expect the counsellor to somehow decided I felt wrong about my mother.

lalalalyra I really hope you will find a way to forge a relationship with any of your siblings or their partners or children as you can. Your older brother is sadly showing your dad's behaviour and that must be hard for him but harder for you (and his wife/family?)

I wondered if the funeral thing was that he wanted to be in control, so maybe no one went; then your sister broke that (so she does have some spirit and could be swayed to engage with you away from big brother, maybe?) - then he said you were all being involved, and you said no.

An onlooker might have wrongly concluded that you were the most hurt, the least able to forgive or move on that would take him from his position as most abused.

Wrong because you have said you do not want to compare who was most worst off, wrong because you have moved on, BUT maybe in your brother's mind you were:
Going against him
Singling yourself out
Looking like more of a victim

Good luck, I would try (if you can) to focus on forging links with big brother's wife and your other two siblings and because I like psychology I would probably investigate the best way to do this.

This is a business plan thing but some points which might help...

blog.kevineikenberry.com/leadership-supervisory-skills/seven-ways-to-really-engage-people/

"Meaning. People want to be a part of something useful, valuable, and bigger than themselves."

You are a part of the family and so are your sister and younger brother, at some point they may come to see that leaving you out is damaging to the 'bigger picture' of family.

"Relationships. Human beings want to feel connected to other people"

Your sister and brother may feel a natural connection to you, can you open a dialogue by text or something. You may not need to deal with a total loss of all of them, just an acceptance of some limitations created by your controlling brother.

"Belief. People want to be around people who believe in them."

You shared experiences of sorrow and believe ( and believe in) each other; that is important and may become more important as you all get older. Please do o not give up. You can accept that for now it is no contact but believe the future may change.

"Freedom. We are talking about human beings here, not robots"

Sooner or later your sister and younger brother may see your older brother is acting like your dad, and may want to break contact with him and find you. Or, I hope, find a way to remain in contact that is meaningful but not controlling with you and each other.

IGNORE anything unhelpful.

Oopse, long, ignore if not helpful.

XX

You were much, much younger than the others. Maybe your older siblings felt you didn't really experience the full brunt of horrors they did. I know I really resent my younger siblings sometimes because I was the one who bore the brunt of the abuse so they didn't have to & now they brush it all off like it was nothing. It was only nothing for them because I stood in front of them and got beaten instead.

I've moved on though. CBT does help.

Your feelings are valid op and you have dealt with them in a way that works for you.

Me and my siblings had a sketchy and not ideal upbringing, my eldest sis has always burned with hatred and resentment and never engaged with counselling. She will play the part of sister/daughter then her resentment and issues from the past will rear it's ugly head, everyone is being punished if we don't toe the line that she has drawn with her expectations of a close family which we are not and could never be. No one can fix the past or take it back, The whole family is nc with her now.

I was the youngest and probably had it "easiest" as in her mind I was the favourite when in actual fact I people pleased and avoided any normal child hood behaviours that would have resulted being vaulted across the room by the neck or hit with a pan like my db and sis amongst other things.

We all took something from our upbringing, I am with you in that I accept it and live my life not repeating it, life is too short to be brooding on the past and just work on making the present/future healthy and happy.

I've actually come to the conclusion today that it's not about my parents. I mean it is, because the way my brother is is because of them and the way I am is because of my counselling which I had because of them, but not directly.

I think it was the first time that I went against something that the three of them decided. My sister would have been swayed eventually by him I think, but instead he swayed so that it was his decision that they saw our father. There has been times before when we've disagreed on things, but ultimately we've always generally gone with a majority with things because nothing was particularly important - where to have dinner etc.

I hadn't really realised until I looked back how often he got his way, or how often when he didn't get his way he managed to find it look like he'd decided to change his mind for an important reason we hadn't thought of.

It would have been fully expected, by all three of them, that if they all went one way then I would follow suit. If it was something unimportant then I probably would have, but my father had been dead to me for a very long time. I was pregnant and had other things going on. I knew that seeing him wouldn't do me any good. He was never going to apologise (which I know from my other brother that he didn't - he was full of excuses) and even if he did the only person that would help would be him.

It's funny now to think back and see things very differently. Including the fact he and my sister (other brother doesn't really have opinions on anything. He just does what the person who seems to be in charge at any time tells him too - although I am most disappointed in him, he and I were always very close and he's just walked away because he's been told too) were incredibly negative when I went for counselling 1 years ago.

My SIL is still very close to me. It's been difficult for her because she strongly disagreed with me not getting to my nephew's wedding because I was always close to my nephew (he lived with me for a short time), but nephew wasn't ready to face the prospect of his father not being there and I wasn't willing to risk his wedding turning into WWIII. I did go to the church, and my nephew knows that I did.

My sister and I never got on. We're very different and she's never liked me. I think she was the youngest for so long that she hated a younger sibling anyway, even without the other stuff.

My other brother didn't cash the cheque I wrote. I know he doesn't harbour those resentful feelings. He just won't go against the majority. He'll still say hello if we see each other, and he sends my children birthday cards and the likes. He's just, weak I suppose. Weak seems harsh, but I don't mean it nasty. It's just the way he is. Anything for a quiet life.

Thank you so much everyone. I've got more from chatting here than I did with that counsellor. He just wasn't the one for me!

OP I am so pleased we have been some use to you. Call Mr an optimist but I believe your younger brother and you will find a way to rebuild your relationship.

I love the idea of you slipping into the church unnoticed by your brother but seen by your nephew.

Your mother and father saught to crush you, they have so failed..

Call me an optimist.

How are you feeling now, OP?

YANBU But should get a different counsellor. This one has failed in a number of respects and it could harm you.

A lot of people say that forgiveness enables a person to move on. I think accepting the scenario for what it was enables a person to move on.

lalalalyra someone here recommended the book Forgiving and Not Forgiving by Jeanne Safer, subtitle "why sometimes it's better not to forgive"

I found it excellent. It removes a lot of the pressure so many people put on you to 'forgive' (the McDonalds sort of easy forgiveness that often makes their own lives easier and is often very dishonest).

The book examines, with honesty, what reaching a genuine acceptance is.

I think there's a couple of versions of it now link to book

I understand op

My mother was highly abusive, npd, pumped me out,

My father was mostly absent, physically and mentally, and when I finally lived with him I discovered he was mysogynistic and cruel and a hypocrit.

Once I got into therapy in my 20's I had gotten past my mother, I didn't forgive but had moved past the anger & rage from talking online survivor groups. My dad I hated more. For the exact reason you put here, I felt my mother was evil and while there was no excuse it explained things in my mind I guess, my dad was/is a decent enough guy, like by others, and I'm sure he loved me in his own way but his indifference to what he out me through at her hands and the damage that caused me was overwhelming. And he clearly didn't want to face that so that meant ignoring what I was going through. And that felt much more unforgivable.

People have limits. I accept he had his. But it also means I don't want to know him. Which my therapist found odd.

I also don't much believe in forgiveness. You either nsturally feel forgiving towards someone who earns it or you don't. Forcing a feeling it's healthy. I felt such rate initially, but once I worked through it I was free, all without forcing forgiveness. Everyone I know who preaches forgiveness seem suck replaying the same patterns of picking partners or friends who replicate the pattern with their parents in some way. Or spouting out bitterness at other points.

I don't wish my parents harm, I don't even hate my mother now, I don't be grudge them others compassion and kindness. They just don't deserve mine.

Read Alice miller's works. They helped me hugely.

No advice, but you sound like a wonderful person and a fantastic mum. I hope you go from strength to strength and make a real success of yourself. Same applies to anyone else with a horrible childhood.