AIBU in being angry with her too (DV related)

[lalalalyra]

I've been thinking quite a lot about my childhood recently. I tried to have some counselling sessions recently to deal with an issue with my brother, but I hated the counsellor and a comment made has actually left me annoyed.

I'm the youngest of 4. I'm younger by a way as my mother had 2 or 3 miscarriages between my sister and myself. My siblings are roughly 9, 8 and 6.5 years older than me.

When I was 7 my father burned one of my brothers with the iron and that was the snapping point for my paternal grandparents who removed us into their care. They were aware that my parents were neglectful and that there was violence between my parents (toward each other) and they bit their tongue over a lot to stay close as it was clear the situation was worsening as the drug problem became worse.

Anyway, my counsellor openly expressed surprise that I was angry with my mother. He tried to hide it, but the first time I mentioned it he reacted quite strongly.

Now my father was undoubtedly the worst of the two. He was cruel as well as violent. One of my earliest memories is being sat at the table hungry and watching him eat all 6 plates of dinner because we'd done something that meant we didn't deserve it. By the time I was 5 or 6 I knew to lie if he asked what my favourite birthday or Christmas present was (and I knew how to hide excitement when I opened something) because I knew he'd target my favourite thing, we all did.

However, my mother didn't just do nothing. I could understand a woman not knowing how to get out of a situation, but she diverted him to us sometimes. If he was raging mad when he came home then she'd start something. Accuse one of us of breaking something or doing something and that meant one of us, usually one of the boys, would get a hiding instead of her. Or she would give us a hiding herself, egged on by him, as that diverted his mind from her.

That I can't forgive. I actually think worse of her than him. He was evil. She wasn't. She didn't save us when social workers came calling or when she had the chance to leave because she knew that she wouldn't ever leave him and we were a buffer. I know this because she admitted it when she was dying.

She was a victim in many ways, but that didn't, imo, give her the right to do what she did to us. Yet this is the second time a counsellor has been surprised that I haven't, and won't, forgive her.

And it's annoying because I'm actually ok about them now. I've made my peace with it. It's the situation with my bloody siblings that I have an issue with and want to try and sort in my mind. It is related, the issues are partly because we have very different views (there is competative 'who suffered the most' between them), but I can't get by this because every counsellor insists on a background and then seems to think not forgiving her is the root. When it's not.

Just seen your later post. It's down to chance in some ways that you didn't have it as bad as your brother, you happened to be younger and female and so you didn't have the situation as long and you weren't necessarily your dads main target.

It's ridiculous of your brother to blame you for this, but he obviously hasn't dealt with it very much in his own head. Perhaps he is still too scared to be angry at your dad but he feels safe to be angry at you?

I'm not qualified so I'm just guessing here!

Anyway I hope you find some sort of answers and a proper therapist.

@Pallisers The issue with my siblings is very complex.

They, well mostly the eldest, believe I had it easier because our GP's took us when I was only 7. I don't believe it's a competition, but they've forgotten completely that my father didn't develop a drug habit until shortly before I was born.

Yes, they took the brunt of it sometimes, but they've re-written history in their minds whereby they had an entire life of horrificness until they escaped to uni whereas I had everything rosey...

I have no good memories of my childhood. Even when we moved into my grandparents he'd turn up drunk/out of it and thump on the door. They each left at 18 and seem to have forgotten it still went on. I don't trivialise their experiences, but they do mine. They forget completely I don't have the counter balance of birthday parties and him teaching them to ride a bike.

Our experiences are very different, but I'd never trivialise theirs.

The main issue is actually that I've realised that eldest brother is very like our father and expects everyone to jump at his every command and doesn't like it that I haven't over our father's death a couple of years ago (they decided to have contact with him and I'm now a pariah because I wouldn't be swayed).

I think that what Pallisers said may be at the heart of this - that your brother believes that because he was male, he attracted more of the abuse (or your mother directed more towards him).
I'm not lessening what you suffered, just trying to think around it.
Would joint counselling sessions with your siblings help? It may reform some of the bonds you have lost.
You and your siblings deserve a resolution to this that you can all live with, and be at peace with. If you are all able to recognise what happened jointly it would be immensely helpful.

In a dysfunctional family, everyone who suffers think they've had a worse time of it. There's no real point in discussing it with them tbh.

Cross-posted. If you feel what I wrote in my last comment was inappropriate, I apologise.

We tried family therapy earlier this year in the hope of finding a solution that would mean I could be invited to my nephew's wedding.

The counsellor had us all fill in a questionnaire thing and then declined to do counselling for us and advised that my brother should only ever have solo counselling due to his dominating (imo abusive) nature. (I only know what he said to my brother because my SIL told me).

Are you sure you are interpreting the counsellors reaction properly? Was it just a look or did they actually say anything.
Because when we interpret reactions of others we are often projecting our own feelings onto them. It's not easy to guess what people are thinking from a look, even though we think we can.

I also agree that there is too much sympathy given to women who leave abusive and violent men. Unfortunately saying that out loud is classed as victim blaming

Yes, I know, ludo. I speak as someone whose parent did not leave for a long time, causing us to have to witness things nobody (let alone a child) should have to see. It has had a life-long impact unfortunately, so it is hard not to feel angry about it and the effect that something that I had no control over has had.

Sometimes there is just too much bad stuff for a relationship to recover. It sounds like this with your brother OP. Maybe it's ok not to have a relationship with him. You need to grieve for the loss of that relationship before you can move on without him in our life.

I'm sorry OP.

All I actually wanted from the counselling was some help in getting over the fact that the relationship I had with my siblings is gone.

My eldest brother will never accept he was out of order in what he did/said. I'll never accept being treated like that. The other two will never go against him, ergo I have lost all of my siblings when we've always said we were us 4 against the world.

That's what I wanted the counsellor's help with. He made it all about my mother.

I can empathise so much OP having suffered abusive childhood and am also NC with any of the family. Of course you are NBU - your feelings are valid and the counsellor needs to retrain IMO. As well as the abuse, you are now trying to deal with the grief of losing the brother you thought you knew. The only advice I can offer is to focus on your journey with your own family, your children. I understand that this is easier said than done, again, back to those feelings! But your siblings have their own issues, they have framed their past to help them move forward and you need to try and keep that on the perimeter of what is important to you. I'm not sure I've explained that very well, but it's how I've got to a point in my life where nothing they say or do would impact on me or my own family, my children.

Are you sure you are interpreting the counsellors reaction properly? Was it just a look or did they actually say anything.

He asked me to elaborate when I disagreed that the 4 of us and our mother were victims of my father. I said that the 4 of us were victims of our parents and explained a little why I said that. He asked if I blamed my mother equally and when I explained again he said that was "very unusual" and suggested we focus on my feelings about my mother before we got onto my siblings. He was openly surprised by my feelings/stance on her.

I don't understand why bloody counsellors are so keen to make us forgive. We don't need to learn how to forgive people, especially if they are dead, we just need to learn how to live with what has happened. My mother has a phrase ' whatever you can't change you have to accept'. My dear brave OP - change counsellor and look around you at what you have achieved. Instead of wallowing in ' who had it worse' you have sought help so you don't end up bitter like your siblings. You had the advantage of seeing how they were as parents and incredibly sensibly you sought help,so you would not be like them. Bravo to you. Your older siblings will have had it worse than you- they were older and were subjected to it longer and I expect the boys were beaten more than the girls- but when you were born was hardly your fault. Your brother obviously has utterly traumatic memories that he needs help with and I hope he gets it but blaming you isn't going to help either of you. Sometimes we have to cut people out of our lives if they are toxic and cause too much hurt. There's no reason they can't be let back in at a later date if it suits both sides. You are NOT being unreasonable with anything you say. I think you are bloody fab to be open, Frank and trying to get help. Keep trying different counsellors until you find the one you gel with. You are doing brilliantly. Good luck - I really really hope things go well for you.

I'm so sorry for you. That sounds incredibly difficult to deal with.
If you don't feel like your current counsellor is helping with this particular situation, it's time to find another one who will...
I hope you can.

Op I have a similar past and also a sibling who resents me for seemingly having it easier. I also sought counselling when pregnant with my first child and am still going almost 9 years later.

I have grieved for the loss of my relationship with my sister and have felt so hurt by her resentment. In the end though, we were just 4 children, thrown together by birth, in the care of abusive, selfish, and in my dad's case, alcoholic, parents.

I have let my sister go as I have all my sibling relationships. I see them from time to time but I can see that we will never be able to build a supportive sibling bond because it was trauma which united us and without that, we have nothing.

I hope you can find that peace. Weirdly, I have also been talking about forgiveness withy counsellor. I sort of believe that I could only forgive someone if they felt sorry for what they'd done and I don't think my mum will ever feel she has done anything wrong.

They took my precious childhood from me, I don't want to forgive them, I feel I owe myself that much.

for you, your childhood was utterly horrible, I hope your adulthood is panning out better and you find some peace and joy.

No your mother doesn't have an excuse for standing by and watching her children being tortured. You are under no obligation to forgive. IMHO.

my counsellor openly expressed surprise that I was angry with my mother.

Any counsellor worthy of the profession would not be openly expressing surprise at anything you choose to share with them.

Of course you are also angry with your mother. Understanding why someone did something (or failed to do something) does not preclude feeling angry with them for it. It sounds like your mother saved herself at her children's expense, which is not a normal maternal response. Your anger comes from feeling betrayed by both parents. YANBU

I can't offer any useful advice, but I would find it very hard to forgive someone for doing what your mother did.

Oh and yes! You have every right to be angry with your mum. It's a mothers job to protect her children from everything they can and to deflect your fathers anger from herself onto you kids is unforgivable in my mind. It's horrendous that she could have got social services to take you and didn't just because she didn't want to leave him for whatever reason. You DONT have to forgive her. If your siblings have, then that's their call. What you do have to do is live with your feelings and try to lay the past to rest. But - and this is purely my opinion, I would not be able to forgive her either. My mum used me in a divorce as a weapon to hurt my father and although I can see her ' crime' was less than your mums I cannot forgive her for using me because the emotional burden and cost was paid by me. She remarried. I have a broken relationship with my father so no, you don't have to forgive a parent. Why the hell should you??

She wasa shitty parent, she was not the mother you needed and she never will be, and I'm sorry you had to grow up a motherless child x

No you certainly do not have to forgive and forget.

The irony of the whole thing is that if I wanted to play their blame game I could point out that they didn't have it worse. They were at school by the time he started. I wasn't. I was a "clumsy child" who broke their arm 4 times before the age of 4. I was the annoying toddler to took the brunt of it all fucking day. They suffered from around the ages of 8, 7 and 5.5. It started low level and gradually got worse... I had it my whole life. They had a good start and it got shit. It was always shit for me. And the boys didn't always get it worse - they were better at getting away, and they were allowed out after school and just stayed out until it got dark. I must have seen my father arrested 25+ times after he broke into our grandparents house. This went on for many, many years. Even after I left home he was still breaking in, getting arrested, going to jail, getting released, breaking in...

I don't actually feel that though. I don't feel that one got it worse than the other. I just feel we all got dealt a poor hand and we are lucky to have survived it thanks to our grandparents. My brother now hates me because I don't accept that he had it worse than everyone else. I don't think he's a superhero who saved everyone. I think we all had it bad and we all pulled each other through in different ways.

I think it's because I'm happy he doesn't like it. It doesn't affect me day to day. When someone told us our father was dying they were shocked when I said I hadn't thought about him for years. He doesn't understand it. Which is because of the counselling I think.

I don't need them in my life, but I liked having my siblings. Especially other brother. Now the only one of them all I have left, somewhat weirdly, is my brother's wife. She was like a big sister to me and she's made clear to my brother she won't lose contact. He accepts that. He hates it, but he knows she won't toe his line because she never has.

MrsBobDylan It sounds like we have similar shitty experiences.

I hope you are ok now.

If I can offer an alternative opinion, I'll try.

I was abused at home, not by my mother.

But my mother turned a blind eye and was an emotionally abusive/neglectful prick in her own way.

I am angrier with her than I am with the person (people) who molested me.

My counsellor reflects back my feelings to me "and you hate her for that" and sometimes that has felt as though he's expressing surprise. He isn't But I've got angry at that reflection "of course I hate her for that, wouldn't you??" etc etc..

I guess all I'm saying is that often counsellors just repeat back what you are saying to them.

Perhaps the surprise is yours. That you hold her more responsible (and I'm not saying that you are wrong to. I feel the same way).

But it is an odd feeling to realise that you hate your mother for letting you grow up in an unsafe environment more than you hate your abuser.

I've never understood the forgiveness thing. Why the hell should you?!!

I see parents on tv who 'forgive' their child's killer or whatever and I'm ???? Ok if it somehow helps you but surely they don't deserve it.

Totally get where you're coming from and agree with some other posters to find another therapist with a different approach to you dealing with this and getting to a point of acceptance.

"He asked if I blamed my mother equally and when I explained again he said that was "very unusual" and suggested we focus on my feelings about my mother before we got onto my siblings."

He clearly recognised your issue if he wanted to focus on your feelings about your mother.

You say: "That I can't forgive. I actually think worse of her than him."

and then:

"And it's annoying because I'm actually ok about them now. I've made my peace with it. It's the situation with my bloody siblings that I have an issue with and want to try and sort in my mind"

It doesn't sound to me as though you HAVE made your peace with your parents actions (and I 100% understand why not).

It makes perfect sense to me that a counsellor would want you to find a way to come to terms with your parent's passed behaviour before addressing your sibling relationship which is influenced ENTIRELY by...your parents past behaviour.