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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU in being angry with her too (DV related)

101 replies

lalalalyra · 10/08/2017 22:13

I've been thinking quite a lot about my childhood recently. I tried to have some counselling sessions recently to deal with an issue with my brother, but I hated the counsellor and a comment made has actually left me annoyed.

I'm the youngest of 4. I'm younger by a way as my mother had 2 or 3 miscarriages between my sister and myself. My siblings are roughly 9, 8 and 6.5 years older than me.

When I was 7 my father burned one of my brothers with the iron and that was the snapping point for my paternal grandparents who removed us into their care. They were aware that my parents were neglectful and that there was violence between my parents (toward each other) and they bit their tongue over a lot to stay close as it was clear the situation was worsening as the drug problem became worse.

Anyway, my counsellor openly expressed surprise that I was angry with my mother. He tried to hide it, but the first time I mentioned it he reacted quite strongly.

Now my father was undoubtedly the worst of the two. He was cruel as well as violent. One of my earliest memories is being sat at the table hungry and watching him eat all 6 plates of dinner because we'd done something that meant we didn't deserve it. By the time I was 5 or 6 I knew to lie if he asked what my favourite birthday or Christmas present was (and I knew how to hide excitement when I opened something) because I knew he'd target my favourite thing, we all did.

However, my mother didn't just do nothing. I could understand a woman not knowing how to get out of a situation, but she diverted him to us sometimes. If he was raging mad when he came home then she'd start something. Accuse one of us of breaking something or doing something and that meant one of us, usually one of the boys, would get a hiding instead of her. Or she would give us a hiding herself, egged on by him, as that diverted his mind from her.

That I can't forgive. I actually think worse of her than him. He was evil. She wasn't. She didn't save us when social workers came calling or when she had the chance to leave because she knew that she wouldn't ever leave him and we were a buffer. I know this because she admitted it when she was dying.

She was a victim in many ways, but that didn't, imo, give her the right to do what she did to us. Yet this is the second time a counsellor has been surprised that I haven't, and won't, forgive her.

And it's annoying because I'm actually ok about them now. I've made my peace with it. It's the situation with my bloody siblings that I have an issue with and want to try and sort in my mind. It is related, the issues are partly because we have very different views (there is competative 'who suffered the most' between them), but I can't get by this because every counsellor insists on a background and then seems to think not forgiving her is the root. When it's not.

OP posts:
mobotdontneeddrugs · 10/08/2017 23:26

I have to say that I'm not at the forgiveness point yet, either, and might not ever be.

But it's a wait off my mind not to feel consumed with anger and "I don't care" and "none of it mattered anyway" feelings anymore.

And instead to just be able to say "yes, that sucked, it shouldn't have happened".

And I do think that once you reach that point you stop squabbling and point-scoring and trying to quantify exactly who had it worse.

Shit is shit. It doesn't matter which of you or your siblings lived through the deepest shade of brown. Once you'd dealt with the shit you'll stop squabbling about it amongst yourselves.

mobotdontneeddrugs · 10/08/2017 23:27

sorry my spelling is appalling late at night, am dyslexic and very tired.

lalalalyra · 10/08/2017 23:31

mobotdontneeddrugs

I have made my peace with it. I completely accept now that I hate my parents. I find my mother's actions a little more abhorrant than my father's. I've accepted that, I've accepted that I'll never forget or forgive, but I'm ok with that. I don't want to forgive them, there are some things in life that are unforgivable. I don't think about them on a day-to-day basis and they don't affect my parenting so much anymore - I was very, very nervous when I first became a parent. I was worried that the first time my kids acted up I'd lash out, but I didn't. I realised I wouldn't, I'm not them.

I had two years worth of counselling about my parents and I'm happy with how I feel about them and how I've dealt with the past.

I'm actually wondering now though if the issue is that the counsellor thought no forgiveness = not dealt with. They are not the same though. I'll never forgive, but it's not chewing me up anymore.

My siblings is an issue that is bothering me massively, but that's because it's recent. My issue with my brother is undoubtedly influenced by the past, but only from his side. He hates me because I went against the agreement of the four of us sticking together...

He and my siblings visited our father in a hospice. They spoke to him. They planned his funeral and a service. They bought a headstone. My first crime is that I declined to visit him. My main crime is that I forbade them from including me and my children (who my father never met!) in an obituary. I said they each had to make their own decision as we all have to live with our own choices, but I had no desire to have any contact with him.

Funnily enough when our mother died it was acceptable that I didn't want any contact with her - neither did my brother.

OP posts:
RebelRogue · 10/08/2017 23:32

The difference between you and your brother is that you accepted it,see it for what it was and moved on. He doesn't. You say he wasn't the superhero that saved everyone. Is that how he sees himself? It's possible that he's rewriting history, and he was the most hard done by,the most abuser keeping your father away from you all. It gives his pain and suffering a purpose,and a noble one at that. It wasn't all for nothing and just pointless,senseless violence. Which is exactly what it was,but he can't accept it yet.

Just a thought..

Italiangreyhound · 10/08/2017 23:32

lalalalyra I am so sorry this is such shit.

I agree with LittleLionMansMummy "You are extremely eloquent op. You are entirely justified in how you feel. What a bloody awful situation for you and your siblings."

I think the counselors were so wrong to try and direct your thoughts in this way, it is a form of control and very wrong.

I would write and complain, ask for an apology and a refund. I expect you will not get one, but I'd at least contact the organisation/s.

You are very right that the blame game helps no one, and in a way none of you probably know exactly what happened to each other. Very sadly, your terrible trauma has poisoned your relationship.

I hope you will get some solace from your SIL and find a counsellor who will agree to see you for the issues you wish to talk about and will not try and impose their view onto things in this highly unprofessional manner.

lalalalyra · 10/08/2017 23:33

Once you'd dealt with the shit you'll stop squabbling about it amongst yourselves.

I think the crux of the issue is that I have. My brother hasn't. He won't ever have counselling or talk about it. He just thinks everyone should do as he does. That doesn't work for me and now that I've stopped going along with his wishes for peace it's WWIII for him.

OP posts:
mobotdontneeddrugs · 10/08/2017 23:36

"I have made my peace with it. I completely accept now that I hate my parents."

Now you see for me this is an entirely contradictory statement.

And I say that as someone who holds my own parents responsible for my multiple childhood rapes.

Peace and hate are utterly contradictory concepts.

You don't need to forgive. But hate isn't peaceful. It just isn't.

MuseumGardens · 10/08/2017 23:36

Only read the op but I think you are right and the counsellor is wrong

lalalalyra · 10/08/2017 23:36

@RebelRogue He definately sees himself as the superhero. And in some ways he did do things that I didn't - he and SIL took me to the park while our GP's got the door fixed for example.

But the problem now is that I'm not 9. I'm not 11 and I don't need someone to tell me what is best for me. I have my own mind and make my own decisions.

It's the first time there's been a decision that three (well actually two - sister and him, other brother is a follower with very few opinions of his own and will always opt for the quiet life) picked and the last remaining one didn't decide to go his way. He can't deal with it at all.

OP posts:
mobotdontneeddrugs · 10/08/2017 23:38

I politely disagree. For as long as you're still arguing the toss over who had it worse, you haven't dealt with it.

"The irony of the whole thing is that if I wanted to play their blame game I could point out that they didn't have it worse. They were at school by the time he started. I wasn't. I was a "clumsy child" who broke their arm 4 times before the age of 4. I was the annoying toddler to took the brunt of it all fucking day. They suffered from around the ages of 8, 7 and 5.5. It started low level and gradually got worse... I had it my whole life. They had a good start and it got shit. It was always shit for me. And the boys didn't always get it worse - they were better at getting away, and they were allowed out after school and just stayed out until it got dark. I must have seen my father arrested 25+ times after he broke into our grandparents house. This went on for many, many years. Even after I left home he was still breaking in, getting arrested, going to jail, getting released, breaking in... "

RebelRogue · 10/08/2017 23:39

@lalalalyra the only real advice I have is do what works for you,what makes you happy,what helps you deal with things,move on.
My best friend has a similar background to yours,out of all the siblings she is the only one who sought help and dealt with the past. Her siblings... one turned into an abuser themselves, there is severe drug addiction and jail time etc. There was also top trumps and accusations of being a drama queen,weak,ungrateful. On top of everything else it was too much so she went no contact.

Italiangreyhound · 10/08/2017 23:39

PS I am so angry with your siblings (especially your older brother) for not allowing you to choose how to react towards your father's death. It is so very wrong that they (he) tried to force you and your children into a farce of a funeral!

I am a Christian and I do believe in forgiveness for releasing people from painful feelings towards others when they choose to do so. But you cannot possibly force anyone into forgiving truly so what they tried to do to you was create a total sham and after years of being treated appallingly it is so wrong that anyone else would attempt to impose that on you.

lalalalyra · 10/08/2017 23:40

mobot Hate is only not peaceful if you allow it to be.

It's not something that I churn over daily. It's not something that I think about even weekly. When I think of my parents I know that they are people I despise. Like other evil people in the world I hate them, yet they don't affect me day to day.

Coming to terms with the fact that I hate them was something I had to do and took a while. It's ok for me to hate them. They did heinous things to me.

Trying to get over hating them held me back for years. Realising that it was ok for me to hate them and that it was ok to put that feeling away and not think about it every day was a revelation for me.

OP posts:
mobotdontneeddrugs · 10/08/2017 23:41

Ok. Carry on hating them then.

To me you don't remotely come across as someone who is at peace with any of this stuff. You sound utterly outraged at them any time you speak of them. That's not being over someone. Not in my book.

lalalalyra · 10/08/2017 23:42

mobot

I said if I did want too. If I wanted to look at it the way my brother does I could say all of that.

I don't. I don't think I had it worse because of the broken arms, or other brother had it worse despite him having visible scars, or sister had it worse because she's got damaged hearing...

The counselling I had when I was pregnant went through all of that with me. I don't believe I had it worse. I don't believe I had it better, but certainly not worse. We all had it shit. And shit in different ways.

OP posts:
mobotdontneeddrugs · 10/08/2017 23:43

My Counsellor says this kind of thing to me all the time and I get all fucking worked up about it.

But he's right.

They push all my buttons, I'm still hopping fucking mad about them.

Is that my end point, where I want to be ultimately? No, it isn't.

lalalalyra · 10/08/2017 23:46

mobot I think we have very different ways of dealing with things.

Yes when I speak about them I may sound angry, but that's not because I'm not in a peaceful place. It's because what they did was outrageous.

It doesn't affect me day to day. It doesn't impact my parenting.

I don't believe in talking until forgiveness comes. I don't believe it's healthy for me to try and pretend that it was ok. It wasn't ok. I'll never look back at my childhood and think it didn't matter - it did matter, it was important and it did play a part in shaping me into the person I am now.

They don't get a daily part of my life though. I'm not the messed up person I was when it was there, every single day.

It might not be the best way for everyone to deal with things, and people need to do it in their own way, but I know I'm at peace with the past. It's where it needs to be - behind me.

It's only an issue now because of my siblings and the fact I miss them.

OP posts:
nocoolnamesleft · 10/08/2017 23:50

He asked me to elaborate when I disagreed that the 4 of us and our mother were victims of my father. I said that the 4 of us were victims of our parents and explained a little why I said that.

I guess...the two aren't actually mutually exclusive. Because, from what you say, it sounds like your mother was a victim of your father. But you and your siblings were victims of both of them. Do you think that was maybe what they meant?

mobotdontneeddrugs · 10/08/2017 23:51

I'm not ok with my childhood either and I'm nc with my parents because of it, and because they take no responsibility for it.

They fucked up massively as parents and I am only ok in myself because I have worked very hard at being ok.

So in that sense we are probably coming from the same place.

But for me the end point is me just being able to walk away from their fuckups. Not use my anger about them to keep myself warm at night.

Italiangreyhound · 10/08/2017 23:53

lalalalyra I am sorry to say this but maybe your brother has inherited some of the controlling ways of one of your parents, or both of them, or has learnt their behaviour in his own sanitised way.

Is it possible your mum or dad felt themselves to be the victim in their own situation?

Anyway, I hope you can continue to move on with your life.

I feel hate is actually a very appropriate emotion for your parents who caused you so much pain. Peace is "freedom from disturbance; tranquillity".

It must be incredibly hard to feel peace after all that has happened. But I think ignoring the hatred you feel for people who caused such pain, would be much less likely to bring peace, than accepting it. In accepting the hatred one doesn't have to allow it to poison other areas of life.

OP, you are a good mum, you know you do not need to repeat what your parents did, you are free of them now, but it doesn't mean you need to pretend to like/love/or care for them.

Thanks
mobotdontneeddrugs · 10/08/2017 23:54

Man, I'm projecting all over the place.

I'm sorry, OP, I wanted to offer an alternative POV but it's too clouded with my own stuff.

I wish you well. Genuinely.

lalalalyra · 10/08/2017 23:55

But for me the end point is me just being able to walk away from their fuckups. Not use my anger about them to keep myself warm at night.

I'm also only ok because I worked bloody hard at being so. Just because I did it differently from you doesn't I use "my anger to keep myself warm at night".

We've come from the same place, but dealt with it differently. What works for one doesn't work for another.

OP posts:
lalalalyra · 11/08/2017 00:01

Italiangreyhound My eldest brother certainly has. He even sounds like my father when he speaks. Being the eldest meant he got away with it for a very long time.

I think they both felt like victims at various points. My mother certainly was at one point. She was young when she met my father and by all accounts he was a very charming, charismatic man. It can't have been easy having my siblings all so close together.

I think they brought out the worst in each other from piecing together people who knew them before the drugs. And I do accept they were both in some ways victim to addiction. They both drank a LOT and always did. I don't know how the drugs became involved, but that was more him than her.

I know she felt like a victim, but did accept when she was dying that she made us victims. I didn't see her or speak to her (I was 14), but my grandparents put her up for a short time (they were his parents, her parents disowned them when I was very young) so I know bits from my Nana.

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 11/08/2017 00:08

lalalalyra you have clearly managed to keep a wise perspective even after all this abuse. I hope, if you do need further counselling, you find a counselor who is as smart as you.

Thanks
Shedmicehugh · 11/08/2017 00:19

So sorry to read your experience.

I just spent ages typing out mine, then deleted! Never said it out loud before! Anyhow it's irrelevant. Just wanted to say Im not sure I've forgiven, more 'forgotten' and distracted through living my own life.

Some siblings won't 'get it' as their experience wasn't exactly the same. I've tried to use my experience as a building block, an example and tried to make my life the total opposite