to think that nearby doctors should help in a potential emergency

[Gwenhwyfar]

Woman bleeding from the head, but still conscious and walking around just outside an infirmary. Someone goes in to ask for a doctor while we're waiting for the ambulance to arrive and is told one will be along. 15 minutes later security guard comes out saying no doctors are available - they are there but not 'available'. The infirmary doesn't deal with urgent cases, so why couldn't a doctor/nurse leave the routine appointment to see to an emergency? Ambulance arrived in the end. I know the infirmary doctors are not A&E doctors, but surely any medical help could have been useful and don't they have a responsibility to help people even outside their scheduled work?

Ok this is going round in circles

We get that you have no medical training OP. What I am struggling with it why you think it's an important factor? It wasn't you V's the doctors from nearby hospital. It was woman waiting for ambulance. Clearly her life was not compromised and she was fine to wait. You don't need medical training to know the difference between immediately life threatening and needs to see a doctor soon.

Nobody said you were obliged to treat this woman. You were fine to do nothing. You don't need to keep pointing out your lack of medical training. As has been pointed out MANY times the people with medical training did not deem this as an urgent case requiring their attention. What part of that is difficult

People do sometimes go to hospital in cars Glum, so why not police cars if the ambulance doesn't turn up and the person doesn't need to be transported in an ambulance yet couldn't take a bus or taxi on their own.

But you are completely missing the fact that the police are NOT a taxi service to run people to hospital. They have POLICE work to do.

"We get that you have no medical training OP. What I am struggling with it why you think it's an important factor?"

People keep saying that I should have known that this was not an emergency, that I should have known that a clinic doctor couldn't help, etc. as if this is common knowledge. This is where the relevance of my lack of medical training comes in. I don't know anything about head wounds and presumed they might be emergencies. People are implying I'm stupid for not knowing this and saying I should go on a first aid course, yet the police were also happy to have a doctor there and they are first aid trained themselves. So why am I being so attacked???

"the police are NOT a taxi service to run people to hospital. They have POLICE work to do."

They can drive people home from being arrested, but they can't drive someone to A&E if the ambulance doesn't turn up? I don't quite get that. The POLICE work they were doing was attending to this particular incident anyway and there was a car and a van. They were actually great. Arrived in 5 minutes, immediately arrested someone and calmed down the other people and sorted everything out.

They can drive people home from being arrested, but they can't drive someone to A&E if the ambulance doesn't turn up? I don't quite get that. The POLICE work they were doing was attending to this particular incident anyway and there was a car and a van.

No. There was no mention of an ambulance not turning up. Just that the police got there first.

Jesus you can't actually be that stupid. It's not for you to decide what the police should do when attending to an incident. They don't run people to hospital ok.

I'm not even sure what your constant argument is about anymore, you seem quite blinded to any suggestion that the woman was perfectly fine to wait

So why am I being so attacked???

Lol stop being so dramatic. People didn't agree. That is all. Nobody cares whether you have medical training or not. Just that because you don't you are not qualified to make complaint and judgment about the decisions of people who DO have that medical training.

OP, your expectations were wrong. There is no need to be all defensive, nobody is attacking you, just disagreeing.

They can drive people home from being arrested, but they can't drive someone to A&E if the ambulance doesn't turn up?

Actually, they don't drive people home from being arrested. It is the responsibility if the arrestee to get home after release.

The police are not a taxi service, nor a medical transport service.

"nobody is attacking you, just disagreeing."

Read through it again. Comments like 'even a child knows...'

People are giving the OP a hard time, so it's no wonder she's a bit defensive. Comments like 'ridiculous of the OP to suggest...' or 'even a child knows...' are quite condescending. People on mumsnet do this without thinking for a while, but none of the OPs like it. It's never so much fun when it's happening to you!!

Fair enough.

However I think most are just frustrated at your refusal to attempt to understand. Even more so at your suggestion that the police should have taken her, despite an ambulance being on its way.

Your complaint is not valid. The woman was walking wounded and as such fine to wait for an ambulance.

Scalps are a pain. They bleed huge amounts for small injuries and look dreadful when they aren't.

They bleed like buggery after only superficial wounds. I managed to produce huge amounts of blood when I banged my head on a vaulted ceiling at a wedding when we stood up to great the arrival of the bride.

I wasn't even aware I was bleeding, but the person behind me was aghast as I looked like an extra from the Texas Chain Saw Massacre.

I did once got knocked off my bike and was on the ground and was not moving just outside a Doctor's surgery. A doctor did come out, but deferred to the paramedics when they arrived.

If after that only had a superficial cut to the head and was otherwise okay, it wouldn't cross my mind that the GPs would or should drop whatever they were doing and minister to my injuries.

I'm really not sure what all this has to do with you tbh. You sound as if you had some sort of responsibility for what was happening..."how was I supposed to know" etc. You weren't necessarily, but once told (in the situation and then here) why not just shrug your shoulders and accept that you don't know everything, and nor do you need to?

"you seem quite blinded to any suggestion that the woman was perfectly fine to wait"

Not at all. It was only in my very first post that I said she shouldn't have had to wait. I was then told that head wounds are not an emergency. Since then I've been responding to nasty comments towards me of the type 'why would you even think a doctor could help', etc. So obviously I come back and answer those.

Thanks Mittens. I knew AIBU was brutal, just never been on the other side of it before.

Genghi I am a GP. We are not discouraged from assisting by emergencies because it is more complicated than our day to day work. This is actually fairly insulting. In fact most GPs work in A+E as part of their training- I did a year in various Emergency departments.

We don't do routine stuff e.g. Bleeding wound as if we are on duty we're doing something else in a different place and if we're off duty the right place is A+E as we don't tend to carry equipment with us and also all medical things need documenting on someone's official record which you can't do as a passer by.

All doctors will stop for a genuine emergency such a needing CPR.

People who have a cut to the head are more likely to need to see a Nurse, not a GP. Mostly it's Nurses that do the bandages, stitches, gluing, cleaning up and so on.

Gwenhwyfar, in answer to your original question; the doctor at the infirmary had already made a judgement call on whether the woman with the head qound needed their immediate help or whether she should wait for the ambulance. Since you say you are not in any way medically trained I suggest you leave the matter to the experts. I assume your asking for your own information and to increase your knowledge base however you seem quite belligerant of the answers you are getting.
So to round up; the police arrived to break up the fracas (thats street fight to you). They do not have the time or resources to ferry anyone to hospital. Imagine if you will, at that exact same time a burglary was occuring around the corner. Now all other police people were dealing with a range of other crimes such as a domestic violence, etc. The policeperson who attended broke up the fight and checked the woman and decided that she was not urgent. So they went off to deal with the incident around the corner. Fighting crime etc. They most likely didnt drive off for donuts.
The ambulance arrived while the police were there so the woman was seen by a paramedic. A paramedic is someone who is trained to judge a persons injury and apply the most appropriate treatment and then take them to hospital if required.
The doctors in the infirmary were all busy
The doctors in the infirmary may have been in the middle of a procedure such as inserting a catheter or drawing blood for a test or performing a scan. They cant simply stop doing that to come and look at someone outside. So they ask the security man 'how does the woman look? Is she conscious and walking around or unconscious, seizing or vomitting?' They decide she can wait for an ambulance rather than leave some chap in the scanner.
Does this explain a bit more to you how emergency and non emergency staff work? Also, FYI, the fire brigade are employed to attend mainly fires and also car accidents where a person may need to be cut out of a vehicle or rescue someone who is trapped in someway they generally have the right equipment for this. The police service deals with crime not civil matters. The a&e is for emergencies, the walk in centre is for the walking wounded. GP doctor is for longer term condition for an initial assessment before deciding whether to refer to a specialist such as a persistent cough, strange lump etc. The speciliast then treats your urinary infection in the infirmary.
Anyway, further information can be found on the nhs website, the internet or the library or watch a few episodes of cbeebie 'how it works'. Good luck in the big wide world OP.

Apologies for spelling and grammatical errors. Autocorrect is incorrect.

If in doubt you can also call 111 and 101 for advise.

Siverthorn Love love love that post.

One of the biggest banes of my life at work are people who get the police mixed up with paramedics/fire fighters/taxi drivers/ street cleaners etc

Sometimes having a doctor (any doctor) at the scene leads to the priority of the ambulance attending the sene being downgraded. So if I (a paediatric doctor) went to help out at a car accident outside my house or the non-hospital office where I often work, I would be pretty useless really - I could do CPR and maybe wipe off some blood with a clean tea towel but I couldn't do anything about treating the problems - head injuries can be serious even in an awake patient but you need a scan to confirm that and then a neurosurgeon and theatre team and operating theatre and icu to treat it.

If the ambulance control know there is a doctor on scene they may prioritise a different 999 call, so the patient may wait longer for the treatment they need, whilst everyone else has a false sense of security that a doctor is there so it's all ok.

The police will of course be glad that the paramedics are coming or that someone else may come out and help as they are not medically trained and also have other things to deal with than people walking around bleeding - if they can hand over responsibility of this person to a more appropriate person they can go and deal with other things. It doesn't necessarily mean the person is critically ill, just that they are ill enough that someone needs to make sure they are looked after (and not walking around bleeding all over everything as you then have the risk of transmission of blood bourne viruses like HIV particularly if other people are injured and bleeding)

So to round up; the police arrived to break up the fracas (thats street fight to you). They do not have the time or resources to ferry anyone to hospital. Imagine if you will, at that exact same time a burglary was occuring around the corner. Now all other police people were dealing with a range of other crimes such as a domestic violence, etc. The policeperson who attended broke up the fight and checked the woman and decided that she was not urgent. So they went off to deal with the incident around the corner. Fighting crime etc. They most likely didnt drive off for donuts.

So would the police not have a duty of care to stay with an injured party until medical help arrives?

"emergency and non emergency staff work? Also, FYI, the fire brigade are employed to attend mainly fires and also car accidents where a person may need to be cut out of a vehicle or rescue someone who is trapped in someway they generally have the right equipment for this"

Silverthorn - I agree this is the main purpose of the fire service. However, in my area (rural) the first responders to a medical emergency are often the fire brigade. We have large distances and a lack of ambulances, in life threatening situations, a fire engine responds to 'preserve life' as they carry defribulators (sp?!) And other life saving equipment until an ambulance is free to attend. They don't attend unless it's a 'red' call (I think that's how they classify a life threatening emergency) and no ambulance will get there within 8 minutes, but they do attend.

sally - it won't downgrade the call to a different coding but if there were two calls with the same response and one had a doctor then yes, the other would take priority generally but it depends on a load of other things as well. If you were on scene with a baby, then that call would likely be a priority

So would the police not have a duty of care to stay with an injured party until medical help arrives

It's not as cut and dried as that. If the injured person has friends or staff from a premises are prepared to wait then no they don't. They're not going to leave someone seriously injured by themselves but it's not unusual for them to have to leave before an ambulance arrives if the person isn't alone