to think that nearby doctors should help in a potential emergency

[Gwenhwyfar]

Woman bleeding from the head, but still conscious and walking around just outside an infirmary. Someone goes in to ask for a doctor while we're waiting for the ambulance to arrive and is told one will be along. 15 minutes later security guard comes out saying no doctors are available - they are there but not 'available'. The infirmary doesn't deal with urgent cases, so why couldn't a doctor/nurse leave the routine appointment to see to an emergency? Ambulance arrived in the end. I know the infirmary doctors are not A&E doctors, but surely any medical help could have been useful and don't they have a responsibility to help people even outside their scheduled work?

I think perhaps the police were covering their backsides as they are not medically trained to say whether a bleeding head wound needs an ambulance or not. If they had cancelled an ambulance and it turned out to be serious there'd be all kinds of trouble.

"What did you expect a random doctor to do that passerby/police officers couldn't do?"

Help the woman. Until I posted I didn't know that doctors couldn't do this. Still seems very strange to me.

In relation to the point about people waiting for routine appointments minding being delay because the doctor is dealing with an emergency, in the busy GP practice where I work, most people would be understanding but there's always one or two who get very irate. They insist on questioning what exactly is the emergency and don't seem to realize that obviously because of patient confidentiality they're just not going to be told!

My relative had a fall at the GP surgery and injured themselves. The GP surgery would not provide assistance for the wound and they had to be taken to a walk in clinic at A+E. The walk in centre staff were pissed off that the GP surgery had not dressed the wound. It was pretty frustrating /confusing, but ultimately if they refuse to help there's nothing to be done.

gwen you didn't answer though, what help can they give that wasn't already being given?

Yet, you were telling me this woman should have got a lift and not gone in an ambulance!

Erm, I never said that at all

I don't know why you're so wound up about this (unless the woman is actually you). If the woman desperately needed urgent help I'm sure people / doctors would have known and helped, but clearly this wasn't an emergency, just a bit of blood.

Nicknacky - I've already said a few times that I don't have medical training so I obviously don't know what you're supposed to do with a bleeding head, except that it does need to be seen.

I banged my head (on the metal handrails you have on outdoor steps. On the end bit of it) when I was about 4 (or 6). Local drs wouldn't see me and had to drive 30mins to a hospital to be seen so no it doesn't surprise me that an adult wasn't seen

^^ my head was bleeding too so not just a bang

Maybe look at getting some first aid training? Genuinely? It's invaluable.

And in this circumstance all you can really do is apply pressure and continue to monitor until more experienced help arrives.

Nancy - witnessing a fight that followed a car accident made me a bit wound up, yes. Not a regular occurrence for me thankfully.

A Head wound presented like the OP suggested can be an awkward one.

A few years ago i had to look at something in an old church that space was restricted and i stood up a bit too soon and whilst walking ploughed a furrow over my head on a lump of sharp metal.

The blood was gushing and it looked as if I'd been on a battlefield.

However there was no "impact" as such.

Now consider if someone had hit their head hard whilst falling onto a pavement, there're might not be any or little bleeding but it's a blunt force trauma as such.

Now that could have caused quite some damage to the internal matter of the brain, these types of accidents been the source of some very serious brain injuries.

So until you have established the source and the way the injury came about you just don't know how serious it is or not.

Nicknacky - there was a big fight going on so there was no way I was going near to the people involved until the police came - and the woman on the phone told me this was the right thing to do. There were other witnesses who were more actively involved trying to restrain people and calm them down. By the time I saw the blood the police were there, so there would not have been any opportunity for me to perform first aid anyway.

Someone posted above that doctors are afraid to intervene because of law suits. If that's the case why should the risk fall on ordinary people?

It is policy for the police to contact the ambulance service for bleeding injuries - as they are not expected to make any judgement call to the extent of the injury. The ambulance crew reserve the right to treat and discharge at scene or transport to hospital. Each of these emergency services will respect the role of the other appropriately.

I imagine that the information that the injured person was ambulatory and breathing was passed on and allowed the hospital staff to make their decision to leave the police to wait for the ambulance. If this had been a dire emergency I am sure it would have elicited the designated resuscitation officer to attend. Generally there are policies and procedures about these things.

The correct interim treatment would be a dressing from a first aid kit and anyone could have gotten that from the clinic, not necessarily a doctor, ideally a current, in-date first aider. Definitive treatment of the actual injury rests with the ambulance crew or the A&E Dept (appropriate to the actual injury).

It is not well known that many doctors are not suitably trained and experienced to deal with out of hospital emergencies. Again all the emergency services and those working in hospital clinics etc have policy and procedure to make sure that the most appropriate persons deal with emerging situations to ensure best use of resources.

I once saw a chap collapse in the waiting room of a doctor surgery and, of course, a couple of the GPs came out - but it was the receptionist who did the CPR and set up the defibrillator because she was the First Aider with the most recent training!

If this sort of thing happens then try to think what you'd do if your own head was bleeding, or your child's. Clean it and apply pressure until you can get it seen to by a pro. Don't worry I bet she's fine now.

What did you expect a random doctor to do that passerby/police officers couldn't do?

Help the woman. Until I posted I didn't know that doctors couldn't do this. Still seems very strange to me

What help did she need beyond having her wound cleaned up, possibly sutured, and being checked for signs of concussion - all of which is more safely and appropriately done in A&E by properly trained & equipped staff rather than some random doctor in the street without the appropriate facilities & equipment? If she actually needed immediate urgent intervention, that's different, people do the best they can with what they've got till the ambulance arrives.

The GP surgery would not provide assistance for the wound and they had to be taken to a walk in clinic at A+E.

If the walk in clinic has the contract and gets payment for treating minor injuries then they should be the ones treating minor injuries. It would be very disruptive for GP surgeries to have to stop and deal with all the sprained ankles and minor cuts. I do understand the indignation if the injury occurred on their premises however.

Clinics etc are not structured so that staff can randomly run around doing things that aren't really their job because they or someone else feels like it.

Much better to go to A and E which would be set up to assess, triage, have suturing ready if needed and could order radiological investigations if needed (and arrange observation if necessary).

The mental health and addiction doctors may not have sewn up any wounds for 30 years, you know!

Someone's been watching too much Doc Martin I think.

Someone posted above that doctors are afraid to intervene because of law suits. If that's the case why should the risk fall on ordinary people?

Doctors are pretty well protected by the GMC and we are not as litigious a society as some may believe. As long as the doctor (or other health care professional) sticks within their scope of practice then it is not really a concern. Perhaps the PP who wrote that was one of our US friends?

OutToGetYou - I've never watched Doc Martin.

"It is policy for the police to contact the ambulance service for bleeding injuries"

I don't know if the ambulance came because of the police calling it or my and other witnesses' calls to the emergency service. When I talked to police call centre on the phone I was asked if an ambulance was needed. I said I didn't think so because at that time I hadn't seen any blood, but I was afraid to go closer. Someone else said 'of course they need one' so I passed that message on. So to those who are saying the lady should have got a taxi, I suppose they'll think I wasted an ambulance. However, the police knew it was coming and didn't cancel it.

It is not well known that many doctors are not suitably trained and experienced to deal with out of hospital emergencies.

Yes seems a bit odd an omission that, what if they were at the scene of an accident some way from help or a similar event?.

Still some have performed quite well on mid Atlantic Pacific flights quite some TIME from a possible landing;!

Just about, all doctors will have had first aid and emergency training at some point, it's just that a GP may not have used them for many years or repeated the training. But most doctors of medicine (I'd like to think) are intelligent and would cope in an emergency if they needed to.

As for the doctors helping onboard an aircraft comments, those doctors responding to appeals for help may well be A&E doctors - the last one that helped me was a surgeon. I've had one occasion when two doctors appeared and for into a squabble about what to do, while a surgical nurse helped out. One of the reason crew ask for doctors is they have medicines and first aid equipment onboard that crew can't give out/use but a qualified doctor could.

Justaboy not Just about!