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Is this just real life? Is this just fantasy? ScaraMooch, keep your hands away from me. Trump continued

980 replies

orlantina · 30/07/2017 17:18

Because the last thread filled up REALLY quickly.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2986638-Seans-gone-Its-sad-Great-guy-Going-to-miss-him-Trump-continued?

OP posts:
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24
cozietoesie · 03/08/2017 22:42

Oh My, Ginger.

BossyBitch · 03/08/2017 22:42

I imagine anyone that was at the meeting. Don Jr, Kushner, Manafort certainly, right?

Precisely! And I'm thinking that the former two might, just might push Trump over the edge completely. I wouldn't be surprised if he has Muller fired in a bout of rage. He must already be fuming after being called weak by the Russians.

cozietoesie · 03/08/2017 22:43

It sounds OK to me also, lion. It just comes very quickly.

BossyBitch · 03/08/2017 22:44

Ginger, I like Haaretz, but ... calling this a bombshell is a tas disingenuous, surely? Everyone's known that Bibi's supremely corrupt for years.

GingerIvy · 03/08/2017 22:45

Bossy well, yes, but I just like seeing it in print. Grin

cozietoesie · 03/08/2017 22:45

But to have it confirmed by the police in court?..............

BossyBitch · 03/08/2017 22:46

Can't argue with that ... now, that would be a very well deserved comeuppance!

TheNorthWestPawsage · 03/08/2017 22:48

Tips for if you happen to find yourself in front of or part of the Grand Jury...

Federal Grand Jury Crash Course
corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/federal-grand-jury-crash-course.html

BossyBitch · 03/08/2017 22:54

TheNorthWestPawsage, so is this a federal grand jury, then?

All the articles seem to say 'Washington', which I took to mean state as opposed to DC.

I know there are differences, but nothing much more. Does anyone have a good explanation?

lionheart · 03/08/2017 22:54

Seth Abramson‏Verified account @SethAbramson 47m
More
(21) Grand jury witnesses are under oath, so they can't pull a Kushner and say they'll only testify privately and unsworn. So: new ballgame.

(22) Mueller can now get docs people don't want to give him and force major witnesses to either testify or plead the Fifth on the record.

(23) More importantly, he can at his leisure secure indictments against any Russiagate figure against whom he has probable cause of a crime.

(24) So if Mueller wants to charge Manafort/Kushner with major/minor crimes to get them to roll on Trump, he now can. Whenever he wants.

(25) Probable cause isn't a "more likely than not [defendant] committed the crime" standard. It's a "reasonable basis to believe" standard.

(26) There's consensus Mueller has "prima facie" felonies (cases he, on their face, could win at trial) against Kushner, Manafort and Trump.

(27) "Probable cause" is a lower standard than that which most legal analysts say Mueller has already crossed with respect to those 3 men.

(28) For instance, Kushner violated FARA; Trump obstructed justice. It seems clear Mueller has way past "probable cause" on those cases now.

(29) But as flight isn't an issue (Trump won't run) and this is a very public case, Mueller likely did not move to a GJ to get Trump now.

(30) CNN is reporting Mueller has impaneled the grand jury to cross Trump's "red line" and look into Trump family business ties with Russia.

(31) CNN is also reporting Mueller may see some "low-hanging fruit" (easy/easy-ish indictments) with respect to Manafort, Kushner and Flynn.

(32) Mueller would always go after those indictments first a) to use leverage to get those men to cooperate, b) because they've no immunity.

(33) By comparison, the most Mueller can do as to Trump is refer indictments to the DOJ, which the DOJ then refers for possible impeachment.

(34) While DOJ might be able to indict a sitting president, they couldn't try him unless/until Congress acted on DOJ referral and impeached.

(35) So does this grand jury impaneling mean someone will definitely get indicted? No. Can you indict without a grand jury? No.

(36) But to be clear analysts agree prima facie (on their face) crimes occurred here, which means Mueller can get indictments if he wants.

(37) Forcing Kushner, Manafort, and others to testify creates a catch-22: either these men perjure themselves, confess, or plead the Fifth.

(38) Also involved in this case is a man, Carter Page, who appears to be a perjury machine—IOW, any testimony he gives will be perjurious.

(39) So this newly impaneled grand jury is every bit as likely to create new crimes (i.e., perjury) as uncover and/or indict older ones.

(40) It also means Trump must fire Mueller ASAP if he plans to; Mueller can now get indictments whenever he wants—that wasn't true before.

(41) This D.C. grand jury is a daily threat to Trump. Mueller can act, secretly, to indict Trump sons/aides on major felonies at any time.

(42) There are different views on whether Mueller can refer an indictment of Trump prior to issuing his last report to the DOJ later on.

(43) The DOJ reg appointing Mueller asks him to make one report to DOJ when his work is done, not issue piecemeal indictments against Trump.

(44) But if Mueller seeks documents from Trump and Trump resists, that fight will almost certainly go public. Same with Manafort docs, &c.

(45) There are serious penalties for grand jurors leaking, but witnesses asked to testify/produce docs do speak publicly on those demands.

(46) A sign Mueller lagged in impaneling a GJ is how quickly he's moving now: CNN reports he's now asking for docs from Don on June

(47) Here's what we should assume: a) Mueller will find every piece of incriminating evidence he wants or any attempt to destroy evidence.

(48) b) Mueller will get any witness he wants to confess, plead the Fifth, commit perjury, or offer immunized testimony against a higher-up.

(49) c) America will soon learn what attorneys have long known: many of those "misstatements" that passed as "politics" will now be crimes.

(50) d) The pace of Russia news, Russia leaks and White House response (including possible action against Mueller) will now explode. {end}

GingerIvy · 03/08/2017 23:00

Except Mueller can also pass any info he has onto to NYAG as they are working on a case against Trump, which Trump cannot try to pardon himself out of. He also cannot pardon anyone on state crimes, so his aides/relatives may be in trouble there too.

saffronwblue · 03/08/2017 23:00

Just can't keep up. We're all loving the Turnbull transcript here.

GingerIvy · 03/08/2017 23:02
Grin
Is this just real life? Is this just fantasy? ScaraMooch, keep your hands away from me. Trump continued
lionheart · 03/08/2017 23:03

Oh yes, I keep forgetting the NYAG.

TheNorthWestPawsage · 03/08/2017 23:06

As far as I can tell it's a federal one but not being a law person I apologise in advance if I've got it wrong! Smile

Reports: Mueller Impanels Grand Jury In Federal Russia Probe
talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/wsj-reports-mueller-impanels-grand-jury-russia-probe

BossyBitch · 03/08/2017 23:08

You are probably right. It's definitely Washington DC, a not state where it's been empanelled.

The law is really not my area of expertise either; I'm okay on contract law (so far as it's relevant to my job) but out of my depth with anything criminal.

GingerIvy · 03/08/2017 23:12

The Hill‏Verified account @thehill 1m1 minute ago
More
McCain: Trump is responsible for U.S. failure in Afghanistan hill.cm/gWWXgY2

TheNorthWestPawsage · 03/08/2017 23:13

Special Counsel Mueller using grand jury in federal court in Washington as part of Russia investigation

www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/special-counsel-mueller-using-grand-jury-in-federal-court-in-washington-as-part-of-russia-investigation/2017/08/03/1585da56-7887-11e7-8f39-eeb7d3a2d304_story.html

BossyBitch · 03/08/2017 23:18

Can we talk the slightly bigger picture for a moment?

It seems to be that developments have been accelerating on every front and gathering pace in recent weeks. Bad headlines just seem to be overtaking each other now. The administration appears to be in complete tailspin.

This time we're really witnessing the beginning of the (quite possibly drawn out) end, aren't we?

Thoughts?

badbadhusky · 03/08/2017 23:30

This time we're really witnessing the beginning of the (quite possibly drawn out) end, aren't we?

DH keeps reminding me I say "well, it's all kicking off this week - maybe this is it!" at least once a week & have been doing so since around April. My hopes of a swift(ish) resolution are fading. Sad

cozietoesie · 03/08/2017 23:31

Well. If I were Mrs Moon, I'd be packing those bags again.

BossyBitch · 03/08/2017 23:57

So far so innocuous:

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump 4m4 minutes ago
More
Just arrived in West Virginia for a MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN rally in Huntington at 7:00pmE. Massive crowd expected - tune in! #MAGA🇺🇸

cozietoesie · 04/08/2017 00:01

Ah Yes. This will be Justice announcing his 'flip'. Smile

cozietoesie · 04/08/2017 00:02

I'm sure that the headline writers will make something of the name? Grin

TheClaws · 04/08/2017 00:36

I'm cautiously excited about the Grand Jury news. It's clear Mueller has been working hard and quietly behind the scenes. As to firing - surely Trump would not go to that extreme now. I think that horse has long bolted.