To think the 'information' the midwife gave me is almost propaganda?

[ethelfleda]

Recently had 24 week appointment. This is our first. Midwife asked if I had thought about feeding yet. I said I plan on breastfeeding. I say 'plan' because (as with everything else baby related) I am trying to keep an open mind as from what I hear, things don't always go according to plan! So I will try hard to breastfeed but I won't beat myself up if it doesn't work out for us.
She handed me a 20 odd page pamphlet thing and said it contained useful information on caring for a new born.

I started to read it today thinking it would be basic NHS info on how to feed, wind and change your baby etc. It was actually 20 odd pages of info telling me basically that if i don't breastfeed, my baby is more likely to develop cancer (as am I) as well as be admitted to hospital in their first year of life etc etc among other very scary statistics.
The language used was shocking IMO! And seemingly designed to make women who don't/can't breastfeed feel awful! Has anyone else had this information handed to them and thought it was way over the top??

I do think that spending any money at all on trying to promote breastfeeding is probably totally pointless. It's taken as propaganda, biased, pushy, etc etc by most women and it offends and upsets a large number of women too. I don't think there's any way of producing any information about breastfeeding that is considered neutral and acceptable. We have a formula feeding culture in the UK, most women are formula feeding by a few weeks after birth and nearly all by 6 months. It's what is normal for the vast majority. I think it's almost impossible to change that, and many people would say that it makes no difference anyway, so it's not necessary to change it. So forget about breastfeeding as something that should be promoted. Accept that it's a very small minority that will need breastfeeding information/support and concentrate any funding on those women that are actually breastfeeding.

Evening all. We've had a few reports on this thread so just popping by with a quick reminder that Mumsnet exists in the main to make parents' lives easier. However you feed your baby it can feel fraught with difficulty and emotion, and we think all mums of babies could do with some moral support, so a bit of peace and love goes a long way.

"I don't think there's any way of producing any information about breastfeeding that is considered neutral and acceptable"

It's like Trump supporters in the US.

Nothing they read about Trump's failures is accepted as true or balanced. It's all 'fake news'.

It's like trying to disseminate the facts about breastfeeding in the U.K. - a culture where bottlefeeding is the normal way to feed babies (the majority of babies over 4 weeks old are fully ff) and where lots of women are unfamiliar with breastfeeding or have an antipathy towards it.

Doesn't mean that the NHS should stop promoting breastfeeding. Particularly in a culture where ff is so much more visible and heavily marketed.

"I think it's almost impossible to change that"

Not so.

Norway used to have bf rates as poor as the U.K. Now pretty much everyone breastfeeds and the vast majority of babies are still breastfeeding at 6 months.

You know that ALL formula advertising is banned in Norway? Just sayin....

I don't see the need to attach a health warning to bf info. You don't get a health warning for having children either, it's just not how it works.

People are able to read up about bf on the internet, most pregnant women look for information about bf online anyway. There is so much myth about bf being difficult or tricky out there we really don't need to add to this. BF support services however should be expanded and need investment.

Kelly mum is an excellent source btw.

It's a totally different culture though, many major differences to here. Even if some of the actions taken in Norway were tried here they may have different outcomes and not produce the same results. Plus, why should there need to be a change? Formula feeding is a valid choice, most people don't think there's any significant difference between formula feeding and breastfeeding. So why is there a need to change what women choose to do?

I think you're misrepresenting the leaflet a bit - I was given it at a Milk Spot (DS had a tongue tie) and I found it really useful. Lots of pictures of correct latch technique, advice for formula feeding about how much babies need each day, stuff about safe sleeping, advice for dads about supporting new mothers, info about free vitamin D drops, and various other tips. I wished I'd had it prenatally (I got it on day 6). It's not just breastfeeding scaremongering.

"Plus, why should there need to be a change?"

For the same reasons why we are always striving for other lifestyle changes which improve the health and well being of all children, and save the lives of some mothers and babies (through the reduction in breast cancer and diabetes in mothers, and SIDS and NEC in babies).

"most people don't think there's any significant difference between formula feeding and breastfeeding"

That's because most people are quite ignorant about breastfeeding and haven't read the scientific evidence.

I had the opposite: I said I was determined to BF and my midwife (and lots of family/friends) said, 'you're going to try, are you?' like I was doomed to fail. I spoke to friends who'd done it and read a LLL book which was realistic and had a troubleshooting guide and I stocked up on nipple shields, an electric pump and all the bumph.

My BF experience was not easy: sore nipples, mixed feeding and lots of pumping and nipple shields but I did 9 months and believe it helped bonding and getting me back to sleep as well as eating lots of cake and still losing weight. I say this not to persuade you but to offer a real experience rather than a lifeless leaflet.

I agree that giving you the benefits should be the NHS' aim and you will also see similar on formula cartons too but anything negative isn't fair. I think explaining how to overcome common problems would be far easier.

Myths such as FF babies sleep more are also unhelpful to BF mothers in the midst of frequent night wakings...thank goodness for forums such as this for providing perspective in such times!

As usual mini, you speak a lot of sense about feeding but people don't want to hear it.

I know it's not considered de rigeour to say it, but there is still a lack of education around breastfeeding. A lot of friends of mine have wanted to breastfeed but given up after a few weeks because they're convinced (or a family member had convinced them) they've not got enough milk because the baby is cluster feeding. They don't realise this is all normal and part of establishing a supply. It's a shame if the information women are given by the NHS doesn't cover this.

'That's because most people are quite ignorant about breastfeeding and haven't read the scientific evidence.'

'Quite ignorant' People are more than aware of the research. In the same way that it changes daily what is good or bad for you, they decide that evidence isn't always 100% and other factors like the dms current mental health are equally as important as their future health risks.

Thankfully this thread doesn't inform health policy.... phew....

The wilful opposition to bf support and information just because some people choose not to bf or are unable to bf is baffling.

The evidence is sound and many, many women love bf; it gives them and their babies an amazing experience over an above physical health benefits. Many mums might not give it a go if the health benefits weren't highlighted because they are either scared that bf doesn't work or hurts etc. or because they believe the myth of ff equals better sleep or the myth that breasts are for sex not feeding.

The NHS has a duty to provide health information and support women who wish to bf because the evidence suggests that BF improves maternal and infant health in the population.... Why should the NHS waste money in promoting ff? Making up a bottle of formula is easy peasy.

I think people are happy to look at the research and discount it, due to the confounding factors that can't be discounted and the idea that it's not relevant in developed countries. So any theoretical benefits are therefore extremely minor and not worth worrying about.

"'Quite ignorant' confused People are more than aware of the research"

Your evidence for this?

By way of illustration - I've read on here over and over again that research into infant feeding never controls for class and income and hence is deeply flawed, when everyone who has read the research that the NHS basis its recommendations knows it DOES control for confounding factors and has done for 20 years or more. People don't read the research, especially when they have no intention of breastfeeding.

The Infant Survey done by the government every 5 years (discontinued in 2010) showed that 1 in 5 people could only name one benefit of breastfeeding or less.

And new studies are coming out all the time that don't make it into the NHS leaflets because they are on areas which aren't being widely studied so can't be included in meta analysis. For example a study this year showing that there is a large difference in the size of the thymus between bf and ff babies, and another study two years ago showing differences in the amount grey matter in the brains of ff and bf babies, identifiable by MRI.

And look at the shock, anger and disbelief on mumsnet if someone mentions that breastfeeding reduces SIDS, and also breast cancer risk in women, despite these things being flagged up by SIDS and cancer charities, so hardly considered controversial or unreliable findings. Look at the number of times the word 'scaremongering' is used here, by a population of women who have no idea AT ALL as to how breastfeeding might impact on women.

No - people don't know unless they have gone out of their way to read up on the subject, and given the reluctance to even reading a flaming leaflet about breastfeeding on the basis that it might upset them if they don't want to/can't breastfeed, well Is hardly say many women are receptive to this information.

"due to the confounding factors that can't be discounted"

The research controls for confounding factors.

It's also research done in developed countries.

read it , then you'd know.

(cross posts but everything you've just said proves my case that most people are ignorant about the research the NHS bases its recommendations on.

People don't believe that the confounding factors can ever be properly accounted for in the research. There's also the question of correlation rather than causation, there's a belief that there's some other social/cultural factor that causes the effect, not breastfeeding itself. Some of the research has been done in developed countries but not all of it.

The SIDS risk is a very very small difference in an already small risk. The cancer risks too, and other factors are more important.

Actually it has been interesting to read a bit more about this in terms of how the research looks at confounding factors. Makes me more certain that I have no problem with the NHS promoting breastfeeding (as long as it is sensitively done which that leaflet appears to be). However, I was fairly confident in my choices anyway and am happy in my decision years later (formula fed).

Just wanted to chip in and say to Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed that I 100% get where you are coming from. My fourth baby also could not breastfeed. I had already had 3 children and spent 5 years breastfeeding. I used to be so judgemental about anyone who didn't or 'couldn't' breastfeed. In fact reading some of these posts I'm still thing 'cracked, bleeding nipples?! so what?!' 'not enough milk, that's bollocks'. A combination of factors made it impossible for my baby to get any milk from me. I pumped 3 hourly and tried to get him to latch every day for NINE MONTHS. There was absolutely no doubt that he would have died without being given a bottle. It was not a choice in any way except the severe pnd has caused me to wonder at times if maybe it would have been better if he'd died because then I could have gotten pregnant again and had a baby who would breastfeed I really feel for you having to go to those appointments. I didn't leave the house for months because I wasn't strong enough to deal with the judgement, real or imagined. I wanted so badly to carry a sign saying 'all my other children were breastfed'. I know I did everything I could but without going through the entire story at every group nobody else knows that.
I've always been a huge advocate for breastfeeding and thought it really couldn't be pushed enough, what with rates being appallingly low and I suppose I still do but I think it's important for people to know that those leaflets/posters have almost made me suicidal.
I really hope things are better for you now Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed and that your little one is doing okay. (My baby is happy and thriving on goats milk, it's just his mother who really isn't well)

'and also breast cancer risk in women'
Yes but drinking one glass of wine a day has been shown to increase breast cancer risk, people take it on board then decide whether to live their lives by statistics or not.

I bf. For me, by some fluke, it was quick and easy. For many friends and family members it wasn't and I do not think it's 'sad' or a shame, or they are 'ignorant of research', they are doing what works for them and that is all that counts.

"The SIDS risk is a very very small difference in an already small risk"

From the Lullaby Trust (UK main cot death charity)
"Since then, numerous studies have supported the protective effects of breastfeeding, with one overview report concluding that breastfeeding reduces the incidence of SIDS by approximately half"

"Some of the research has been done in developed countries but not all of it."

The research the NHS refers to in breastfeeding literature aimed at U.K. mothers is done in developed countries.

You would know this if you had properly explored the evidence base.

"The SIDS risk is a very very small difference in an already small risk. The cancer risks too, and other factors are more important"

Well that's not for you to decide is it? It's for individuals to decide what matters to them. So give them the information and let them make up their own minds as to what matters to them.

'Well that's not for you to decide is it? It's for individuals to decide what matters to them'

Yes. Finally

Yes, and the majority decide that it's not relevant to them and they're not bothered about the risks. The risk of SIDS is very small to begin with, and a reduction by half of an already very small risk is something that most people are happy to discount. Not smoking (or drinking/drugs) and safe sleeping (baby on back etc) are the main risk-reducing things that can be done. Similarly with the cancer risk.

I do think that as first time mothers we are vulnerable to all the information given to us. And feel the pressure and subsequent guilt a lot more.

Second time around I simply said to the midwife /HV / obstetrician 'I'm not breastfeeding' and didn't even entertain their questions 'why not?'.

My baby, my body, my choice.

I do not give a fuck what some person at the hospital thinks.

Formula is fine.