Benefit bashing

[LovelyBath77]

To think MN can be a bit benefit bashing at times. Even if people are rightfully claiming / ill / poor etc.

Recently, I have seen someone having a hard time although ill and having a baby and considering claiming tax credits. I also have had a hard time although illness (both me and DP) and low wage means claiming some tax credits.

I can understand the rage for those fraudulently claiming benefits or the like but why for those legitimately claiming? or AIBU?

To answer the person who asked if somone with teenage kids could still have a sahp and claim tax credits the answer is yes . You could currently claim them until your youngest child leaves education. However with Universal credit replacing tax credits this will change and once the youngest child reaches a cerain age both parents would be expected to work before any top ups are given. Obviously the rules will be different if the sahp is a carer or unable to work for health reasons.

Soooo, both parents in all families should, in your book, work full time? Even if they are an unskilled worker and working full time doesn't cover the cost of childcare? Or if they like to see their children for more than 2 days a week? What if they're desperately unhappy in their job? They should stay in it of course, because pride is more important than mental health
And another. If you can't afford to have children, then just don't, or stick to one.

What will happen when everyone takes this attitude? Stuff the others, I want the best for me and my family and if you have to pay for it, so be it. How long until there is no-one left to do the dirty work for others to benefit?

What annoys me is that there are many hard working, non entitled families who really have no other choice but to rely on benefits, and they get the wraps because of people with the above attitude.

I'm so glad that UC is slowly but surely expanding. No more 'I shall only work 24 hours despite the kids not requiring childcare any longer', or the 'I'll set up a business, that will involve a couple of hours being on the internet every day, but will pretend that I do 16 hours extra in marketing it' so I can claim TC'.

Tax credits are disgraceful.

I don't mean that in a sense that anyone claims them, I mean it in a sense that the very concept means that employers are knowingly paying workers a sub living wages because the taxpayer will pick up the slack

It's truly an indictment of our society that you can work full time in a 'proper' job (i.e. Something like as a carer rather than a casual worker) and be unable to afford the very basics - safe housing, security etc.

I also think it's wrong to choose benefits as a lifestyle. They are there to support the vulnerable, and those who have temporarily a need for them. If you want to be a sahp you need to budget for it. I'd love to do it but finances do not permit.

The social contract holds on both sides - that means everyone pays their taxes (individually and as corporate entities) and everyone is a responsible steward of those funds.

I work in care and earn not much over the minimum wage I work full time. I claim tax credits and child benefit and am not ashamed to do so, without these benefits I would not be able to pay my rent etc

You're exactly the type of person tax credits were intended to. People working hard and long hours in low paid very valuable jobs. I am appalled at the hourly rate carers get.

I have no issue with people claiming tax credits, it's a shame that it has to come to that wages should be higher!

However my issues lie with people that are able to work but choose not to because it is easier to be on benefits. I sadly know people who think it's their 'right' to claim benefits and not work.

The benefits system is a great idea to help those who have genuine need for it, but it should be not be a lifestyle choice for those who cannot be bothered to work imo.

Exactly Anon864 That is just the case with me. I am severely disabled. I was able to work before having my daughter (unplanned, contraception failed) but now I struggle just to look after her. I don't have the chance to rest & prepare for work/recover from it. Absolutely impossible now that I've ended up a single parent. In actual fact, pregnancy, child birth & having a 2yr old has made my disability so much worse... I'm now starting to become unsure if I can continue to live unsupported. However that's a whole different thread!

And before anyone wonders how I managed being pregnant - wheelchair and being VERY familiar with Hospital staff. Was there more than at home. As I said, contraception failed. If I'd had an abortion, I would have been torn to shreds by Pro-lifers. I keep my baby whilst disabled - I'm selfish. I literally CANNOT win!

Baileys Re: PIP Assessment - They can do home Assessments? You have to apply for it. Surely if the claimant is bedbound that's a good enough reason?? X

She's no ones carafes, gandalf - my DB works two jobs, neither of her kids are SN in any way, she just doesn't work because she didn't want to. She paid to do a HLTA qualification and used it for 6 months before deciding that she actually wanted to return to staying at home.

Makes my blood boil! She has the ability, the qualifications and the opportunity to work, she just chooses not to.

*carer - ffs autocorrect - carafes?!

Also, can I just point something out? I am in NO WAY defending the Benefit lifestyle! (None of this applies to me either!)

I am merely 'reassuring' others that it's changing....

Things have recently changed. It is now only possible to 'choose' benefits instead of working until your baby is 1yr old. Then you are expected to 'prepare for work' then after a short period of time you are then expected to PROVE you are looking for work. The same as Jobseekers Allowance. Where you have to log in to the job search website for so many hours per day (it's all logged). They even have to attend courses that are 9-5 mon-fri for a week or two weeks at a time once a month etc etc.

So they are making it extremely difficult to just 'sit on benefits' and do not allow you several years until your child is school age anymore.
The Benefit Cap is also a LOT more brutal than most people realise. It keeps happening to everyone on Income Support with children. My neighbour has been capped 6 times in the last year and had her housing Benefit dropped to £5 per week! She is a single parent with 4 children. As her youngest is now 1, she is retraining as a paramedic.

Universal Credit is even worse! They leave you with no money AT ALL for 6 weeks. Then if you have no disabilities you get a flat rate of £217 per child and £317 for yourself for the month. Plus about 60% of your rent. With the remainder of your rent to be paid out of your £317 you've been given to live off for the month!

It's really really brutal. So the hatred for Benefit claimant needs to stop because it genuinely does not allow the Benefit lifestyle anymore! Obviously I am not trying to gain any kind of 'sympathy' for the lazy/entitled types, I'm just reassuring people that it's not possible anymore to just 'sit around on benefits' now that Universal Credit/(Disability benefits excluded of course) The Benefit Cap for Income Support/Jobseekers have been created. So everyone can relax!

Good oh.might as well bring back the workhouse

Justdon't, there is no expectation of attending interviews for tax credits whatsoever so you can claim those for eighteen years per child. Likewise you can work 16 hours or 24 between a couple to get around the benefit cap.

Universal credits are very slow at coming in but will bring about some much needed change, however people will still play the system. When the limit for claiming IS as a parent was lowered people simply had another child to reset the time limit for claiming so those that are lazy and don't want to work will find a way round them.

YANBU OP,

I have a long history with state benefits (family on benefits as a child, claimed as an adult, moved in welfare rights as a profession and still need to top up with tax credits and child benefit)

I probably know more about benefits than most. And I have seen the attitude towards claimants sour incredibly during my lifetime.

The first time anyone suggested it might have been immoral for the state to feed and clothe me as a child (not just chavvy, or a bit of a joke or cause for teasing- but out and out immoral) I was well into adulthood. The person who said it was an American Libertarian and the sentiment seemed so insane that I was stumped for a response.

I look around now and I see that attitude is completely common place and claimants are made to feel like they've done something terrible and need to justify themselves constantly.

For what its worth I'm a huge supporter of the welfare state. I think its one of our best achievements as a society.
Even the biggest benefit basher accepts that there are certain things an individual cannot manage for themselves and that its therefore better for society to organise them collectively through government.
Think about roads, schooling, the NHS.

Now think about the different phases people go through in their lives: the vulnerability of childhood, the difficulties of supporting a young family, periods of illness, joblessness during an economic downturn.
Its very difficult for the average person to protect themselves against these eventualities.
Surely it makes sense for us all to contribute through general taxation so we can see our fellow citizens through these difficulties?

I don't think anyone in mainstream politics right now would seriously argue for the abolition of state benefits.
And yet I see people taking on that mantle as individuals and attacking other people about their claims/what they spend it on/whether they should really be claiming. As though they are owed an explanation.

I want to just tell everyone to calm the fuck down. The attitude I see on here is offensive and disgusting. Quite honestly I find it extremely difficult sometimes to come on here and give you guys advice about what buggy you should get and whether you should name your kid Conan, knowing the sense of disgust you harbour for me and mine.

It will be interesting to see how they deal with changing everyone from tax credits to UC. - so far it is just for new claims. And already is not working very well!

Good point well made diluting

I expect there to be a massive outcry about wage levels as soon as the UC rollout spreads.

You can't treat essential FT workers like workhouse inmates and not expect a reaction.

unlimited, but do be aware if you go a bit further back before socialism took a hold in the UK many many older people see it as a matter of shame to take money from the state. I remember that attitude as I am older. It was demeaning and showed you did not have enough self reliance to look after yourself. We lost that entirely I think. Some will think its loss is a good thing.

There's definitely been a change in attitudes for many. Claiming benefits is actively encouraged now, there's no longer any shame in not providing for yourself or children anymore. It makes for a lazy and selfish society for future children to grow up in and one that will get worse unless we can end the benefit culture.

@justdontgetitatall, you'd think so wouldn't you. The way PIP assessments are done is a hash. I went to one recently to support someone. The report that came out after had blatant lies in it (stating the person had walked 12 metres across the waiting room with no issues when it was nearer 4/5 metres etc). The fact I went to support but didn't speak on her behalf was painted in a bad light. She's not mentally handicapped and perfectly capable of speaking for herself

Lucysky2017
That's true. And working class self reliance is a positive value in many ways. But one expression of that self reliance has been in self organised friendly societies and workman's insurance.

When William Beverage designed the welfare state his original brief was to "systematise workman's insurance"
So I prefer to think of the welfare state as something that grew out of working class self reliance rather than counter to it.
Its not fair to describe the welfare state as a product of socialism either. Although it was created under a labour government there was cross party support. Beverage himself was a Liberal. Winston Churchill was strongly in favour.

That's true and in fact plenty of societies and cultures and small groups set up relief for the less well off. The Mormons pay 10% of income to the church and have vast store houses where volunteers at weekends hand out food to the hungry in the community. It is a fairly natural human desire to set aside enough to provide for those in need whilst also doing the same for your own family too.

Even the English aristocracy on landed estates had a similar system with cottages and pensions provided for retired ex workers and then Cadbury and other families built model housing for their workers etc. My ancestors in the 1800s had housing that was gradually improved for mine workers (I bet it was pretty basic in the 1850s however)

Where should there be an inherent shame in not providing for yourself Rainbow? Do you expect all people who cannot provide for themselves to feel shame?

10% seems to be universal across religions.
Even now the basic rate of income tax is 10%
If I have a sudden windfall 10% seems to be the "reasonable" amount to donate.