To think it's understandable that English speaking people often aren't great at learning foreign languages?

[Treblecleff88]

When I was at school, I learned French. Do you know how many times I've been to France? 0. Do you know how many French people I know? 0. So guess how much French I remember? Pretty much nothing.

I used to a spend quite a bit of time in Germany and they are all so good at English. But they communicate with other foreigners using English as a language they have a mutual understanding of. They listen to pop songs sung in English. They are constantly exposed to English as are foreigners across Europe. It's easy to see why the stuff they learn in school seems to stick so much better. It is always being reinforced and they have a real, tangible reason for learning the English language.

I often feel we're given a hard time for our lack of knowledge with foreign languages but realistically, even if we pick one language in Europe and get to the point of being fluent, it's not going to be relevant when conversing with the vast majority of foreigners in this country. English is so widely spoken by comparison to say French, Spanish or German which seem to be the three languages which schools seem to teach in the U.K.

Interested to hear other people's views on this.

I don't know if it's lazy l, but I know you don't find it as easy. I've been with my DH for 9 years and still doesn't speak a word of Spanish (my mother tongue). I on the other hand can speak English, be fluent in French (if I surround myself with French media which isn't that hard anyways), can comfortably read Portuguese and speak/read basic Japanese.

Not British, but I think that it's important not only for people in England to learn a latin language (French), as modern English has been influenced by French.
The practice required to learn one language should help with our own maternal language as with learning other new languages.

People going to STEM subjects also benefit (although it could be argued that Latin and Greek could be better :) ).

Btw, in countries like Portugal we don't just learn one language (now usually English), but a second, compulsorily. Usually Spanish or French.

I spent several years abroad, teaching English to these people that PPs so glibly say are surrounded by English and have plenty of chance to practice.

English didn't just fall into their heads and out of their mouths. They worked, they struggled, they fucked it up and they worked again. I've had students dissolve into tears in the middle of presentations because they felt they were failing.

Anyone of any mother tongue can make that effort should they choose, and like PPs have said there are plenty of resources available.

And no we can't learn another whole language each time we go to a new country, but it really doesn't take long to learn hello, goodbye, thankyou, sorry and do you speak English?

I don't know why we're so happy to put the burden onto others and not make the slightest effort. We wouldn't behave like that anywhere else in life so I don't know why we feel justified to do so with languages.

I agree, and I think that big films and music are mostly English is a big part of it. People want to watch the latest films and dubbing is crap. I used to be with a Czech guy who said he watched films with Czech subtitles on and slowly learned that way, simply because he watched them so much. I'd have to hunt down Czech films to do the same!

I was in Sweden recently and everyone I met spoke better English than a lot of people I knew. Made it hard to try and speak Swedish. Unless you live in another country it's very difficult. I also don't think it's arrogant to assume others will speak English - it's just fact that most other places you'll be able to get by. No use pretending otherwise so as not to come across as arrogant! When I'm on holiday I always try and learn a bit before I go and will always try and speak in the language of the country. But even people who don't really speak English know some words and phrases and like others have said when they drop into English what can you do?

I did have a medical problem in a lonely corner of Sardinia where people actually only spoke Italian. So there are places you can go to practice. Wasn't ideal right at that moment though

I think the new way of teaching grammar etc has and will help immensely. My children have grasped languages so much quicker than I ever did because they have a greater understanding of how language works

For the most part, it's hard for anyone to learn a language. Even children take years of study to learn a mother tongue properly.

But, in general, I'd still say that exposure helps tremendously.
Many countries may have more exposure to English than there's exposure to their language in England ( say, French and Spanish), but their exposure is very limited except perhaps in touristy regions, compared to other countries.
Most teachers of English abroad will teach people who struggle or who try to learn as adults, which is always harder.

I agree with you OP.
I always wonder which of the languages people are expected to learn. For the majority of the world, the second language is english.
are we expected to learn french, german, hindu, cantonese?
it's not lazy or arrogant, simply that we are living in a country that is the second language already for the world.
Actually, for the people who say it's lazy, which language should we learn?

MFL are introduced too late in Britain and generally taught in an unmotivating way. I was lucky to have some good teachers and now I live in Germany and speak the language fluently, as well as reasonable French and rusty Russian. I can get by in a few others. It has opened up opportunities for me that I couldn't have had with English alone, and friendships are harder to maintain without at least one person having a good command of the language. Learning languages is honestly one of the best things I've done in my life.

Actually, for the people who say it's lazy, which language should we learn?

That is the question many of us face in choosing a third language, either in school or for generic use.

One of my DC has processing difficulties. But their linguistic comprehension is surprisingly good considering their other difficulties. Three psychologists have told me that this is down to my DC's near-bilingualism. Had they been monolingual they would struggle even more.

I think it's a huge shame that MFL are not given higher priority at school. If nothing else, we are soon going to need more MFL speakers to shore up business links with EU countries and help reestablish goodwill.

I speak three other languages. People constantly tell me that I'm 'good at languages', but I'm not. There are usually one or two people in a year group who are truly gifted at languages. For everyone else, I agree with BreadZeppellin that it's all down to a lot of hard spadework, rote learning of grammar and vocabulary, practise etc. It's like learning an instrument. Hard work and practise. Not necessarily fun but but worth it in the end.

Even if kids never use the language again, there might be linguistic benefits in English, as for my DC. Along with benefits such as discipline, sense of accomplishment, feeling part of the wider world etc.

A lot of English people can't even read and write English so I wouldn't expect them to be able to learn another language. You only have to go on Facebook for 5 minutes to see that people can't grasp the only language they have ever been expected to learn!

I'm an English teacher living in Germany. I completely disagree with your theory. Most people don't go out of their way to practice a foreign language, which is why they don't get better at it!

The UK attitude to foreign languages is appalling and has many factors but I really think that sadly the biggest barrier is arrogance. You can see it in the OP - this assumption that English is so prevalent and important and universal. It's not. It might be more commonplace, but it's not that much more difficult to find sources of other languages, if you want to find songs, TV programmes, films, books, websites etc in other languages - google is your friend.

We seem to think that because English is "so important and prevalent" that there's not much point learning anything else and that other people will find it so easy to learn English that we might as well not bother. This is just pure laziness, and while it probably doesn't matter for anyone over 30 right now, it damn well is going to matter for our kids, who are going to be hugely short changed and very uncompetitive in a global market if they inherit this unfortunate tendency. (Anyone in between those ages would find learning a second language - any - to be a huge boost in their global competitiveness).

DH always complains that people switch into English and won't speak German with him, but I've seen him, 9/10 he doesn't even try, he just says (in English) "Sorry I don't speak German" or (in stilted German) "Sorry my German's not good". I've had far more success by saying "Please can you speak slowly" - if the subject matter is complex and speed/understanding is important then usually they do switch into English and I don't mind that at all.

It doesn't take that long to get a basic footing in another language but you do have to put the work in and recognise that studying/learning the theory of the language is only about 10% of it, you have got to use it. Languages are skills, not knowledge. Are you going to get better at football by reading about football tactics, or by playing? What about drawing? Can you become a great artist by studying important artistic techniques? Or driving? Should we just scrap the practical test and lessons, theory's enough, right?

You've got to speak it. It's no excuse that "most foreign speakers in the UK speak another language" - so? You don't have to sit around and wait for language speakers to just happen across your doorstep! Seek them out - according to EU survey in 2006, 23% of the UK population can speak/understand French, 9% can speak/understand German and 8% can speak/understand Spanish. There are meet up groups all over the country for speakers of foreign languages, you can put up ads seeking language exchange (they speak in XXX with you, you speak in English with them), study groups attached to local colleges, libraries or universities which you may or may not need to be a student to join, evening or weekend classes, and if all else fails, it's back to what you're doing right now which is browsing the internet - there are forums in every conceivable language, there are skype groups or discord channels or IRC chat rooms, email groups, you name it. Search "XXX learners" and you'll find them. If you're learning a European language, get yourself on Skyscanner and AirBnB and go for a weekend away, with the goal being to USE language as much as you can. It doesn't matter if your sentences are crude, that's how you start, and the only way you'll get any better. Ban "I don't speak X" or "Sorry my X isn't very good" from your vocabulary! Learn the phrase for "Speak slowly please" instead. IME, most people are absolutely delighted when you make the effort to understand and/or try to make yourself understood. And if not? Oh well. Perhaps they were having a bad day.

Don't rely on the UK's school language learning because it's crap. It's all theoretical with barely any unstructured practice, students are instructed to learn chunks of language by heart without properly understanding it, topics are dated and uninspiring, and it's all marked on accuracy which is all wrong. Think of the last time you had an interaction with somebody who struggled with English. Was their grammar and pronunciation perfect? Probably not, and I bet you didn't feel offended by that. Did they tell you about how many siblings they have and what their hobbies are? I doubt it. But was your interaction useful (to one of you) and did you (both) manage to communicate on some level? Those are the language skills which are valuable.

I completely agree. There needs to be a more sustained focus across the educational system on one particular language in the same way there is for English across the world.

There also needs to be a real motivation to learn it as well as continued exposure to it in our cultural life.

There is no language that fits the bill for it.

The closest is Spanish but speaking Spanish isn't going to help when trying to converse with tourists in say Sweden or France.

If only Esperanto had been more successful.... if only Brexit would lead to a rejection of English as the European lingua franca but I don't see it happening unfortunately.

"Which language should we learn?"

Any. Really. Pick one. Pick French, because it's our closest country. Pick German, because the job market is strong. Pick Spanish, because it's easy. Pick Japanese because it's cool. Pick something you studied at school. Pick something your next door neighbour speaks. Look in your family history and pick something related to your heritage. Pick some style of music you like and follow that. Look globally and see where your career field has better opportunities. Go to WHSmith and pick the first textbook you see. Download Duolingo and choose the prettiest flag. Pick one out of a hat. It doesn't really matter what you want to speak, the process is the same (with some extra work if you choose a language with another script).

But there's no point learning a language if you don't want to do it. Spend your time on something else. You can say I'm lazy for not wanting to learn a sport but it doesn't interest me.

Watch films in that language with subtitles and read books in that language.

I don't really understand why it's an argument that speaking Spanish doesn't help you converse with Swedish tourists... if you want to converse with Swedish tourists, learn Swedish. If you want to be able to communicate with the largest number of people, look up population figures (within Europe if you only plan to travel within Europe, in the world if you want to travel worldwide) and stick to that. Or start with another widely-spoken European language (French, German or Spanish) and go from there.

If you speak two languages you've doubled your chances of being able to communicate with any single person on the planet. You're never going to get a 100% chance though unless you learn every single language on Earth which is probably impossible.

BertieBotts, it's great that you speak German fluently but that isn't going to help you outside of Germany much is it?

And you learnt it as a result of a sustained interest and effort because you are a language learner. That's not average. I'm talking about your average native English speaker who doesn't see the motivation to learn the language of one particular country because they're not going to live there compared to other populations for whom learning English brings many benefits in many countries.

To call those people lazy and arrogant is to misunderstand the problem.

Well if nothing else this thread has been useful - kids sitting engrossed in Masha and the Bear in Russian! Thanks for the kick up the arse!

If you speak two languages you've doubled your chances of being able to communicate with any single person on the planet. You're never going to get a 100% chance though unless you learn every single language on Earth which is probably impossible

Not sure if you speak English and then learn Flemish that your chances are anything like doubled!

When you learn a second language, you learn much more than that language. It improves your understanding of grammar, and something of the culture of that country.

I did French, German, Latin and (classical) Greek. I can still get by in French and German 40+ years after leaving school. I can get the gist of articles in Italian newspapers, from having learned Latin.

I think schools do little to encourage children to learn languages. I have a friend whose mother is German and grew up bilingual. She then lived in Spain for many years, and is also fluent in Spanish. Her daughter is fluent in German and Spanish, and did French and Spanish at school. When it came to GCSE options, she was only allowed to do one foreign language. Where most kids would have opted for Spanish because it was the easy option, she went for French, because she already knows Spanish at least as well as the teacher.

I find it very sad that languages are so neglected in education. I'd like to see Latin taught more widely too. I feel really sorry for medical students, having to learn all those Latin terms with no prior knowledge of the language.

OP:

"I spent a long time paying to go to classes to learn Italian through my own choice. That was 20 years ago and I barely remember a word now."

My parents spent a lot of money and effort involving me in violin classes when I was seven. I stopped playing violin when I was nine and haven't picked one up since. I don't even remember how to correctly hold the bow so obviously the classes completely failed.

Normally when you don't do something for 20 years, it's difficult to pick it up again.

No one spoke to us in English, while we were in France last year - it's so rude to reply to someone in English to improve your own language skills with no regard for anyone else.

Both my dcs choose to take languages at GCSE because they enjoyed learning them - they get a buzz speaking French on holiday, they love how it sounds and they have the ability to remember words easily. But I think for those who don't, it's a very practical decision not to learn a language GCSE. Your options are so limited and to choose a language when you have little interest in learning it and maintaining it post GCSE is pretty pointless.

if you want to converse with Swedish tourists, learn Swedish

You're having a laugh aren't you? Do you know how well the Swedes speak English? Better than we do!

But being a wishful thinker I did anyway. After studiously listening to Pimsleur for months before my trip my first hopeful God morgen was met with a fluent string of English. My tack så mycket with a "you're welcome".
Was I really going to insist they listen to my faltering Swedish whilst they had better things to do?

Instead I gave up and accepted that English allowed me to speak to a diverse group of people from all over: Germany, Holland, Belgium. Was I really supposed to learn German, Dutch and Flemish just so I didn't feel guilty about being lazy?!

I completely agree that it doesn't really matter which language you pick to get the benefits in English and sense of wider perspective on the world.

Also completely agree that Latin should be more widely taught. Such a useful tool for history, art, literature. And makes it easier to learn other languages. I really regret having crap Latin and have often been in situations where it would have been useful (one term in my comp but planning to do online course in September).