To think it's understandable that English speaking people often aren't great at learning foreign languages?

[Treblecleff88]

When I was at school, I learned French. Do you know how many times I've been to France? 0. Do you know how many French people I know? 0. So guess how much French I remember? Pretty much nothing.

I used to a spend quite a bit of time in Germany and they are all so good at English. But they communicate with other foreigners using English as a language they have a mutual understanding of. They listen to pop songs sung in English. They are constantly exposed to English as are foreigners across Europe. It's easy to see why the stuff they learn in school seems to stick so much better. It is always being reinforced and they have a real, tangible reason for learning the English language.

I often feel we're given a hard time for our lack of knowledge with foreign languages but realistically, even if we pick one language in Europe and get to the point of being fluent, it's not going to be relevant when conversing with the vast majority of foreigners in this country. English is so widely spoken by comparison to say French, Spanish or German which seem to be the three languages which schools seem to teach in the U.K.

Interested to hear other people's views on this.

I don't speak German fluently. You don't need to be fluent in a language for it to be useful - this is such an offputting myth.

And of course it would help me outside of Germany. It would help me in Austria, Switzerland and the Netherlands, for example, as well as parts of the US and South Africa. (Dutch of course isn't German but many Dutch speakers understand German - and English - and written Dutch is often roughly understandable with a knowledge of German). And if I do come across somebody who doesn't speak English, perhaps they speak German instead. If I come across a language which is similar to German I can probably pick out more words compared to only knowing English. And having knowledge of two languages helps with picking up a third, especially when the third is from the same language family.

I'm not saying that everyone who is monolingual is lazy and arrogant, but it is an arrogant assumption to say that English is somehow easier to learn than any other language or that it's more useful, it's lazy to say "Oh I couldn't possibly learn a language because it's too hard and there isn't enough exposure". You have to make the exposure yourself if you want it. What people really mean is "I'm not interested in learning another language because I don't see the benefit" - which is fine, we all have different interests, but don't make excuses and claim that it's the "fault" of English for being too useful and universal, can you not see how ridiculous that sounds?

I agree my example of "doubling" your chances of being understood is too simplistic, but it certainly increases your chances of being able to communicate with others if you speak more than one language. Flemish is spoken by around 7 million people worldwide living in Belgium, the US, France, Canada, South Africa, Australia and Brazil predominantly. Of course some of them will also speak English, but many of them will not.

I have GCSE French. I work with several French people and I am comfortable with the odd 'De rien' verbally. With one of these colleagues, we conduct many text conversations in French - he understands the psychology that prevents me feeling confident speaking. He will also speak to me in French (easy stuff) and know I can understand, just not reply (unless by text )

So a crippling embarrassment stops me speaking French. Obviously, in France, I do so where possible and necessary. I would never open a request or conversation in English.

Learning a modern language is, I think, essential, even if it tongue ties you as an adult. I learned more about the English language when learning French. I think the principle that we are not a global community of 'Englishers' needs reinforcing.

That's not to say that I think that modern language should be French. The most obvious European language is Spanish. Chinese if we go international.

I've already said it's not lazy to have no interest in something. It's lazy to assume that other people learning English will make up for you not bothering to learn their language. If you aren't interested in communicating with people from other countries then it doesn't really matter, anyway.

I don't know anything about Swedish language or people - it was just that somebody said there was no point learning French as it won't help you speak to Swedes. Which is why I said then learn Swedish.

I don't really understand why people are so defensive about this. There's no requirement to learn any skill you aren't interested in, just don't perpetuate myths about how difficult and pointless it is.

I agree that it's laziness. That and the teaching we're given. I scored an outstandingly shit D in French at school.

Then I met a Frenchman and fell in love with him, and I'm having to learn French for his family/our children.

It's a mixture of the fact I was lazy at school, and that reading a textbook doesn't teach me as much as real life situations, i.e. Conversation

But PickingOakum, surely it is your own decision if you rarely watch a film or do anything else to keep your languages up? With modern technology, all those things are so easily accessible these days

Cory, it really depends on the language in question. There's not always a lot of available digital media.

There are very few films made in my second language. It's pretty impossible to get a book in the language in Britain; the ones I have were bought in the country in question (and books are very expensive over there). Most TV is subtitled imports, and very tricky to find online. To get the channels in Britain requires an expensive satellite package.

The one thing the language does have is a rich music culture, but what I find is that it reinforces the same vocabulary over and over, usually about love and loss or very esoteric concepts. Very few people write songs about practical matters, such as fixing a kitchen sink.

So while it is etched on my brain how to say something like "I will extinguish my burning heart in wine tonight", I can't actually recall the word for sink plunger, u-bend or plumber.

I suppose the issue is exposure to different types of discourse in another language. Its very noticeable when it comes to things like GCSEs in mfls. I suspect I would struggle to pass the GCSE in my second language without studying because the exam tests vocabulary that I simply never use; the exam is very geared towards 16 year olds in full time education with questions about class time tables and sports.

I've found that once you get outside of the major European and international languages, available resources for minor languages are very few and far between. There's certainly nowhere near the level of resources available to ESOL speakers.

Attributing English peoples lack of language ability to laziness or stupidity only makes sense if you are a xenophobe. For people who don't fall into that category, different incentives and opportunities is an explanation.

Attributing English peoples lack of language ability to laziness or stupidity only makes sense if you are a xenophobe

Rubbish. English people don't feel the need to learn other languages because they know almost everyone will speak english to them, because they learn it properly. It is pure laziness and lack of need.
nothing to do with xenophobia.

don't make excuses and claim that it's the "fault" of English for being too useful and universal, can you not see how ridiculous that sounds?
It's not ridiculous at all. English is more universal and that has an effect on the motivation of native English speakers to learn another language.

I'm not saying there's no point in learning foreign languages. I speak 5 of them (to varying levels obviously), which I've largely taught myself and one of the most interesting aspects is what it's taught me about English and how the language I use everyday evolved. But even I have moments when I think what's the point?! I don't have the money to travel for a while so in the meantime I rely on YouTube.

It is ridiculous. Of course English is more universal but if that has an effect on your motivation that is about you. That is your decision.

it was just that somebody said there was no point learning French as it won't help you speak to Swedes.

What I actually said is that learning Spanish is great if you are in Spain but it's not going to help you in other countries where Spanish is not a common language.

I'm comparing it to, say a Spanish person who learns English and is therefore not only able to communicate in UK, S Ireland etc, but in other countries where English is the main second language. It's a huge motivating factor that we simply don't have here.

I think we are fortunate as OP has said that English is the common denominator a language to many nationalities when travelling. I travelled recently and German, Russian and Spanish people were all using English to communicate with each other. Like OP I personally have never needed to learn another for this reason, everyone else speaks English. However, if I were to emigrate to say Germany, I would consider it necessary to learn the language in order to integrate.

I was talking to a lovely Dutch girl. She got to know my dd online through their love of Owl City. She said her motivation to learn english was to understand the lyrics. But then even the dutch pop group Chips album was all in english.

I suppose I just don't see why motivation has to be so passive. If you're not motivated to learn another language then fine, don't bother? But to claim that this motivation is entirely out of your control is silly. Many people in Spain have no motivation to learn English either.

I agree with the OP on this one. If live in Europe and you speak anything other than English as your first language, English is a total no-brainer for your first foreign language due to the massive number of people who also speak it as a second language. But as a native English speaker what do you pick? If you look at Wikipedia's top languages by number of speakers it's a difficult choice. Most of the other big languages are pretty far away from English - Mandarin, Urdu and Arabic - and will be a significantly bigger challenge than English would be for e.g. a French or German speaker. Spanish, Portuguese and French are all near the top but that's to a large degree because of former colonies that are a) far away and b) not particularly economically integrated with Europe - in comparison with say the US, which has a lot of companies with European subsidiaries, which strengthens the use of English in continental Europe.

I tried to illustrate this to DH by asking him what he thinks about a British going to the Algarve and speaking English there. He thought it was a bit pathetic and presumptuous. Then I asked him what language he would try first. He was like "oh". Yeah. When non native speakers do it it's a lingua franca, when we do it it's us behaving as though we didn't know we'd left home.

I'd also say it's a massive, massive help to be exposed to foreign languages at an early age, not just learning them (which actually, I think German kids start at 8 or 9, certainly the only bilingual kids in our kids' kindergarten are ones who have an other-language parent) but also just hearing them and being comfortable with not always knowing what someone said and being confident enough to have a go at speaking a few words. DD surprised me the other day when we went shopping to France. She was like "oh no! They speak French! I don't speak French! What will I do?" and I turned to DH and was like "this is your department, sorry" because the first time I left the UK I was 18, not 5.

I also think it's really unfortunate that French is the first language that most British learn, because IME, French are some of the least forgiving of people speaking their language and making mistakes. You have to have a total brass neck to continue speaking your shit French or German or whatever after the other person has switched to English, even if they are doing it to be helpful (Switzerland I am looking at you. My DD thinks Basel is an English speaking town.)

Many valid points made already. I think one problem is that pupils can only take a limited number of subjects for A-level. If you want to do a science degree and need to do two sciences and maths, it's hard to fit in one language, let alone two. Languages are often not seen as important at school, certainly not as a future communication tool.

I know loads of English people who say they're no good at languages. I'm sure there must be Dutch and Swedish people with similarly wired brains but they always seem to manage to learn English. But perhaps it's unfair to compare ourselves to the Swedes or Danes. Lots of people in Spain or Italy for example don't speak a foreign language.

I didn't do a MFL degree but spent a year abroad in Germany. So many people replied to me in English (I had post A level German at the time) and asked why I was bothering to learn German in the first place (they weren't saying I shouldn't have learned an MFL, just that Spanish would have been more useful). In fact I do think Spanish would be more use than German at school.

I don't mind if an English person can't be bothered to learn the native language of where they are staying as if just makes it harder for them. However I can't stand the arrogance and rudeness a lot of English people have when they go abroad that the natives should bend over backwards to speak in English or that the person they are speaking to must be an idiot because they speak limited English. This is definately an English thing. In my native language it is the norm for people to speak 3-4 languages pro fluently English not being one of them. There are a number of Asian people who have moved there and have quickly learned the main language, however English people tend not to. When people settle in the U.K and live here for years some have limited English and they are mocked for not knowing English but yet a lot of these people already speak several languages fluently. The only reason a good if the world speak English is due to slavery and colonisation. England is no longer the superpower it was, Africa and Asia are becoming more powerful and influential so not only so not wanting to learn at least one other language means your holding yourself back. China is one of the new superpowers middle class parents are running to teach their children mandarin as they see the rise changing

toomuchtooold

When non native speakers do it it's a lingua franca, when we do it it's us behaving as though we didn't know we'd left home.

Exactly! It's not considered arrogant for a German person to go the Algarve with little knowledge of Portuguese if they can speak English but it is for us to do so.

Of course it's up to the individual to motivate themselves to learn another language but with the best will in the world it takes years of concentrated learning to achieve fluency in just one language. It's not something that can be learnt easily.

It's not considered arrogant for a German person to go the Algarve with little knowledge of Portuguese if they can speak English but it is for us to do so

It's not. Trust me.

But it's arrogant if either nationality lives in the Algarve and never learns to speak Algarvio.

But perhaps it's unfair to compare ourselves to the Swedes or Danes. Lots of people in Spain or Italy for example don't speak a foreign language.

It's no coincidence that Spain and Italy dub their English language films whilst Scandinavia uses subtitles.

Even my mum who is the world's worst linguist but is also a Scandi-noir fanatic can manage a few words of Danish.

I attribute most of my knowledge of Spanish to a few seasons of Verano Azul when I was younger.

But it's arrogant if either nationality lives in the Algarve and never learns to speak Algarvio.

Ooooh I didn't know about Algarvio. Well there's a day that's gonna be wasted to Google!

I don't think it's arrogant to assume that currently it is more personally valuable for a native Mandarin speaker to learn English as a second language than it is for a native English speaker to learn Mandarin as a second language. This will probably change in the future but right now language learning is not a huge motivation for someone who is already fluent in English.

There is a very strong culture of laziness. Also the idea that languages are hard, so kids who are less able should not learn them. Which I think is utter rubbish. While a lot of people who work in retail may well be doing it for reasons other than the fact that they could not find better paid/skilled work - there are a lot of people who do work in retail because they do not have qualifications for "better" jobs. Yet overseas, they often speak English and other languages. Try going into a shop in Finland. They'll have badges on with flags of the languages they speak. I only once saw someone who only had a Finnish flag on.

So my point is that anyone, regardless of academic ability, can learn other languages. You just have to want to do it.

As for lingua franca, I've used German and French overseas - even tried Italian in an Italian restaurant in Spain because my Spanish is non-existent. But I've also been in a queue in Italy (full of Germans and Brits) and I was the only one who asked for the tickets in Italian. And when I've heard a line of Germans talking and the Italian person has spoken German back to them, I've just stuck to German, too, rather than struggling with my much poorer Italian.

One thing that does bug me - why do travel articles never ever tell you what it's like language wise? It would be so useful if they said in passing if a lot of the locals speak English or other languages, or whether you''re really going to struggle if you don't know a few words of the local language. But they never mention it, and I can't imagine that all these travel writers are fluent in about ten languages including less commonly learnt ones like eg Serbo-Croat.

I would have loved to learn Latin at school. It still makes me that while my brother learnt Latin at his all boys school, my all girls school didn't have it. Instead? Home Economics. Not wishing to shit on that subject at all, but I wish I'd had the choice. Maybe my brother might have wanted to do HE too. This was in the 90s btw, not that long ago!

I also second the suggestion of reading books in another language. If anyone happens to be looking for good, easy to understand, books to read in French, I love Au Revoir Les Enfants by Louis Malle and the french translations of Harry Potter and Pride and Prejudice (Les Cinq Filles de Mrs Bennett). DON'T TOUCH PROUST - I can barely understand that stuff in my first language (English) .