To think it's understandable that English speaking people often aren't great at learning foreign languages?

[Treblecleff88]

When I was at school, I learned French. Do you know how many times I've been to France? 0. Do you know how many French people I know? 0. So guess how much French I remember? Pretty much nothing.

I used to a spend quite a bit of time in Germany and they are all so good at English. But they communicate with other foreigners using English as a language they have a mutual understanding of. They listen to pop songs sung in English. They are constantly exposed to English as are foreigners across Europe. It's easy to see why the stuff they learn in school seems to stick so much better. It is always being reinforced and they have a real, tangible reason for learning the English language.

I often feel we're given a hard time for our lack of knowledge with foreign languages but realistically, even if we pick one language in Europe and get to the point of being fluent, it's not going to be relevant when conversing with the vast majority of foreigners in this country. English is so widely spoken by comparison to say French, Spanish or German which seem to be the three languages which schools seem to teach in the U.K.

Interested to hear other people's views on this.

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turbohamster Tue 25-Jul-17 21:28:46
"Cory, my OH is Danish and he and his parents/siblings learned multiple foreign languages in school. However, whilst they're all fluent in English, their competence in the other languages they learnt is no better than my GCSE level languages.

Are you really trying to say that everyone in Sweden speaks French/German/Spanish as well as they speak English?"

Of course not. But there is a vast middle ground between "as well as English" and "as badly as the average GCSE-educated English person".

I would say it is normal for an educated person, even if not specialising in foreign languages, to be able to conduct a simple conversation in one or two other languages other than English or even read a novel- and my dd (who was on track for an A in her French GCSE) can't do anything like it. The current GCSE exam doesn't even expect you to be able to carry on a conversation: all you have to do is recite a set piece.

Two of my brothers have not been through HE and have no particular interest in languages, but they can still manage a basic conversation in German.

I did not study MFL at university, but the people I was at uni with regularly read books in at least two or three languages and that wasn't seen as odd. It would be pretty unusual in a similar department in the UK.

I do think a lot of this Brexit shite is linked with a lot of the lack of desire to learn 'forrin'. No doubt in my mind thatlearning languages helps you understand more about the culture and history of te people who use those languages. So the brits just sit on their little grey island complaining that they were made to learn French but have never had a chance to use it. Well, it's never been easier to get across la Manche, and the only valid reason would be lack of funds.

That's interesting, sonja; I'll certainly keep trying, because I want to improve my French and German. I did once try to give a French-speaking woman directions in London in French... I ended up walking with her to the place she was trying to find.

RubyRoseRing you have entirely missed the point. Of course I could go to France. There are lots of places I'd like to go, to see, to spend time. I didn't have the funds when I was younger and during the time I could have afforded me, life events have meant that I've travelled to different countries, for a variety of reasons such as visiting friends who have moved or going to a family event abroad, My point is, I learned a language that I have had no exposure to outwith school and so i literally can't remember any of it. For people who are foreign and learn English, they have exposure to it without setting foot outside their front door or without having to force that exposure in any way. That reinforcement of the language on a day to day basis makes an enormous difference.

My German friend was fluent in English before she had ever travelled to the UK.

I do find it disappointing/embarrassing that so many Brits don't make the effort to learn another language (or more).

In addition to the "everyone speaks English so why bother learning another language" lazy cop-out, I think to an extent it also depends on what is the norm within your social/family circles. I'm English through and through (my family tree shows that we no even faintly "exotic" blood in our history) but my mother was always very encouraging of me learning French (partly because it was a subject she enjoyed herself at school). She had to learn Urdu as part of her job so she taught me the basics. I ended up doing a joint honours degree in French and Economics. Along the way, I learnt Spanish and picked up a decent smattering of Italian and German. By studying a language at university, it meant that my circle of friends became quite "international" and it became the norm to converse in different languages, quite often mixing them in the same sentence. It's fairly unusual in my circle to only speak English. I've also spent time living and working overseas (which wouldn't have happened if that first French experience hadn't opened my eyes) so between that and my friends, I've picked up basic Cantonese (but my Mandarin is dreadful), Norwegian, Danish, Portuguese and even a bit of Arabic. I love languages and I will always try to learn a few basic wherever I am. I feel quite embarrassed if I can only communicate in English. The locals have always been willing to help me - except occasionally for the French (love them lots but they can be "difficult" sometimes) despite me being pretty much fluent.

I get so much pleasure from speaking languages, and find I get a much warmer response when speaking to someone in their native (non-English) language. It makes me sad that so many Brits miss out (through choice) on this experience. I've also met plenty of people who don't speak any English (for example, I lived in China for 3 years and most people I met didn't speak English, especially the older generation) so it can really help to have other languages to fall back on.

It's true that many people in foreign countries respond in English because they want to practise their English. It never ceases to amaze me that so many foreigners speak such great English, but the influence of music and film is vast abroad. I remember watching an article about an incident in Holland and the Dutch guy was apparently completely fluent in English.

I have to say, though, that the myth of everyone speaking English abroad is so untrue. Go off the beaten path in France or Spain and no-one speaks English!

I must have a diverse group of mates, but there are at least 5 of my mates who are French or Spanish speaking (1st language) so I'll happily switch between all 3 during a conversation

PS There is lots of data to support the fact that children's grammar/literacy is superior if they learn/use a language other than their own.

I speak 3 languages (4 according to the SNP ) fairly well, can get by in 2 more and also in BSL.

I also think it's lazy. French and German are good basics to cover the romance and Germanic languages. Ie if you speak them fluently it helps with several other European languages. I'd love to learn Russian and Mandarin and perhaps Japanese but the semiotics are HUGELY different.

Frankly the state of our English is appalling too!

I agree with pp who said if you move to another country you really should learn that country's first language. Bloody rude not to.

I did several years in Germany with army ex, astounded me how many of the wives wouldn't even shop in German shops. My attitude was I had the opportunity to live in a foreign fantastic country so grab with both hands. I loved Germany

I get what you mean OP, and to PPs if I visit a country I learn at least the basics (but usually more than that) if I plan to visit the country. Once or twice my (narroe minded) DP has commented on the superb English speaking of immigrants on the news to which I have responded that they'll evidently have learned far more of a foreign language than he ever has.

*narrow

graphista - I was not far from paderborn and point blank refused to shop in the naafi. Food was one thing I nailed while I was over there. Even if the locals did constantly talk English to me, I wanted to learn what I could and shopping in the local shops was a good way to do that.

I wasn't lazy at school - I worked very hard to do well in my A'levels. However, I was only able to take three subjects, so I chose ones which I thought would be beneficial for my career, and languages didn't make the cut. If I had been able to take, say, five subjects, I'd have taken a language. On the other hand fluency in English is much more essential for many continental Europeans.

Education-wise, 20 years ago it was not laziness. I had an Italian pen pal (whom I now have on FB!), a French pen pal and an Italian pen pal, all arranged at the same time in primary 7. All preferred to write to me in English though I strove to write to them in their respective languages. That would just be reciprocation, would it not? All three wanted to use their English though

FFS meant German the last time not Italian twice haha

Its complacency really, the education system doesn't deliver languages in a way that makes it essential or an incentive like maths or science just seems like a box ticking exercise on the curriculum.
I Think yes there's the assumption of most people will speak English so why bother and a certain level of shying away from learning or speaking a language as we aren't comfortable with it.(goes back to education system).

Even as a child I had an interest in Spanish but couldn't access any resources to learn it and wasn't available to me in school.
I mentally shut down in French classes.
Last few years I've self taught enough Spanish to engage in conversation with a native and communicate my needs or intentions, I'm not any where near fluency but I gained respect by natives when I visited a Spanish city recently and I found 90% of the people I spoke to couldn't speak any English at all.

Learning languages opens up to learning their cultures etc. I wish I could live in a Spanish country just to immerse myself in it.

We can't learn every language though but we can atleast show them respect when visiting and not be arrogant to assume they will speak English.

I studied French at A-level and some extra modules while at university. Also two years of German at school and again some modules at university, and a year of beginners Spanish. I found the Spanish easy to pick up because of a strong foundation in French. The only way I could have improved my French was to go and live with the language for a while. 15 years on, my active vocabulary has atrophied, but can come back with revision.

Britain does suffer from a lack of incentive for MFL. We're not motivated by global media because between domestic media and the USA there is more than an abundance of English based music/ writing/ film TV etc.

We teach MFL too late. Awkward, embarrassed teenagers who often don't have an aptitude for languages and only learn it for 2-3 years before they can give it up is not a great starting point for gaining a love of languages.

The French/ German/ Spanish/ Other split is also awkward. I could expose my DCs to a language to give them a leg up in advance, but which is most useful when I don't know what school they will go to, or which half of a year group/ language they will be allocated to.

Our knowledge of grammar doesn't help. Much of my understanding of English grammar comes from GCSE/ A-level French, not English itself.

The cycle feeds around as there is a continual shortage of language teachers making it difficult to reform language learning.

There are also some people who CBA The number of times kids have entered my class moaning about their language lessons, muttering that they don't want to go to France/ Germany/ Spain anyway.

No, treble, l didn't miss your point. Just made a different one!

I think, if someone wants,they can keep up a minimal fluency. Others have listed how. It's definitely not as good as going to the place and getting totally immersed but it's better than losing it all. But you have to want to and put in the hours. Part of the problem is the way MFL is taught in the U.K. People often don't leave school feeling confident and wanting to build on the language they already have. In many other countries English is begun much earlier, and English is used much more in the classroom. Yet l have come across English teachers in Germany, for example, with quite iffy pronunciation in English. What they do have is the confidence to keep going regardless. And that is essential when learning a language.

I don't think the will is there in the U.K. to improve the way languages are taught. Part of that is political. To improve language teaching a new approach is needed and that's been talked about for decades and things are worse rather than better.

Exactly op, I was at Rheindahlen and some barely left the base!

Well, I can tell you in Paris if you speak to someone in English there is a good chance they will pretend they don't understand you just to because they want to teach you a lesson about not even trying to talk the local language and just assume everybody speaks English.
I'm a born and bred Parisian, living in the UK from 10+y, I would still be annoyed by the typical tourist who doesn't make the effort.

Saying that, in most parts of Japan younger people at the very least will likely be more fluent in English than many English speakers I know

My experience of living in Japan has been completely different to your, then.

I speak 5, for various reasons. Some people have an aptitude, some adapt due to circumstances. It just takes interest and effort.

I think the bulk of the blame here lies in how little importance we put on teaching foreign languages. We need to take this seriously at primary school level, when little brains are still able to soak up those foundations. Teaching languages half-heartedly at secondary school doesn't exactly inspire people to go much further with languages - you have to get people when they're young, or it becomes so much harder for them.

I have to say, though, that the myth of everyone speaking English abroad is so untrue. Go off the beaten path in France or Spain and no-one speaks English!
Too true. I get by in two other languages just as a tourist. I think I'm quite typical.
In the U.K. I know very, very many people who speak languages fluently other than English because they have come to live here from elsewhere and all their DCs, who are essentially English with parents from other countries, are mostly bilingual. I also come across very many people living here long term who have not learned English.

@Davros - Agree. I am Indian, English is one of the national languages of India, but I still speak/read/write four other Indian languages fluently. My experience wasn't atypical either. Almost every IndianI know speaks at least one regional Indian language, Hindi, English, can understand Urdu, and sometimes even know Arabic/Sanskrit depending on religious education. I found learning French and Spanish a doddle compared to those other languages.

Schools should drop compulsory French lessons which are usually pointless for most and focus more on stem enabling subjects.